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| | Author | Messages | |
Tempter
Posts:41
 | | 11/13/2007 6:59 AM |
 Alert | | Your time is running out and the support you seek will not come. False accusations don't carry any weight. | | | |
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| | MaytagMan
Posts:43
| | 11/13/2007 7:44 AM |
Alert | | Attn: City employees the Temp Boss is now in please resume working. | | | |
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| | bear down
Posts:62
| | 11/13/2007 8:09 AM |
Alert | | Tempter - fundamental difference of those posters is that they've been on this forum for a long time and have weighed in on many subjects independently of one another. You 3 seem are new to the forum and seem to only weigh in on the Estes issue. Also, just stating that they are false allegations doesn't hold any weight in my book. Refute with some teeth. | | | |
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| | DKG
Posts:23
| | 11/13/2007 8:29 AM |
Alert | | Bear down, there is more to this city and many more avenues and much better avenues to gather the local news and happenings of this city then what is argued back and forth on this forum. I am sure we have all done our homework and are as informed as you and others are on what is happening within the council and city management. We do not need to be on this forum night and day to be "well educated" on what is going on locally. Actually, I would have to say that this forum is one avenue, but probably one of the worst ways to gather our opinions as there seems to be many non-truths circulating here. | | | |
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| | OutRider
Posts:89
| | 11/13/2007 8:35 AM |
Alert | BD –
The ironic thing about all this is that the people who are trying to help Roger and Joe are in fact hurting them as much (if not more) than they allege the articles have. Because no one has come on to refute the allegations with anything other than “attack the messenger” tactics they tell everyone that the allegations must be true. This is the same tactic that defense attorneys use when defending rapists. They attack the victim not the evidence.
Also ironic was that I was NOT going to take a position on the Kolman issue but wait to see what an investigation brought out. I do believe in due process as it pertains to employment issues. The city would have to investigate the charges from this article because they set precedence by starting an investigation based on an anonymous email.
I personally like Roger. Like me he can have caustic humor and that can set people off. But if he is doing what the accusations state he is, well then the appropriate measures will have to be taken. Those measures could be as light as having to attend courses on behavior in the workplace to the ultimate: summary dismissal.
As for the Estes articles…I have to thank the Estes supporters on this thread. They have single handedly driven many of the “on the fence” folks to contact us to sign the petition. In their efforts to help Joe they actually have done him harm.
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| | Cactus Rob
Posts:1203
| | 11/13/2007 8:59 AM |
Alert | Posted By DKG on 11/13/2007 8:29 AM
Bear down, there is more to this city and many more avenues and much better avenues to gather the local news and happenings of this city then what is argued back and forth on this forum. I am sure we have all done our homework and are as informed as you and others are on what is happening within the council and city management. We do not need to be on this forum night and day to be "well educated" on what is going on locally. Actually, I would have to say that this forum is one avenue, but probably one of the worst ways to gather our opinions as there seems to be many non-truths circulating here.
DKG ... I hate it when I can only get one side of an issue. Enlighten me, please. Thanks in advance! | | | |
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|  | bear down
Posts:62
| | 11/13/2007 9:07 AM |
Alert | | DKG - If the city were more forthcoming with information so that we - the public - could make informed decisions and opinions than forums like this would not be necessary. We, unfortunately, don't have the inside track that you have to what the real story is. Our comments are not vengeful and mailicious. We are truth seekers. I agree wholeheartedly with Outrider in that you have only strengthened the resolve that there is something amiss and that you are only skirting the real issues and truths by deflection. Why are you so adamantly opposed to intelligent communication and debate? We are not casting dispersions but only discussing what has been reported on other news sources. Estes's impropriety along with most of the other council members has been discussed on all 4 Maricopa news sources - not just the Monitor which dispels your theory of Kathy Hall's "axe to grind". Again, refute with teeth. | | | |
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| | luv the copa
Posts:211
| | 11/13/2007 9:42 AM |
Alert | This is so comical after a while. This is my last response on this topic. The last time Joe hit the papers big and was as big of a topic on this forum he did speak up and post. Let's see where it got him....He had to erase much of it due to the fact that Rick's attorney threatened him with a law suit and he was told that he could never mention Rick's name again. He was very open with the forum and 9 out of 10 of you called it a "spin". Do you think it would really be any different this time?
DD had a good point that there are different media outlets that he could talk to, that does take time....but don't hold your breath on him getting on here for you guys to shred again. Honestly, you all know you would do the same thing. Like I have said before...you all get the luxury of knowing who we are and we don't know who sits behind your screen names.
Oh, and for the record...those of you who thin tempter is Joe's alter...If Joe has something to say rest assured that he would identify himself. I have also seen Tempter post some pretty less than favorable posts about Joe.
Once again, his cell phone number is 520-280-6858....if you really want to know his thoughts. He also has an e-mail posted on the city web site. It is just as much your responsibility to ask questions as it is his to give answers...call or e-mail him. He will not come on here and neither would any of you :o) | |
Changing lives one diaper at a time since 1993.
Trecia | |
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| | luv the copa
Posts:211
| | 11/13/2007 9:42 AM |
Alert | | oops double post | |
Changing lives one diaper at a time since 1993.
Trecia | |
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| | golf_rules2
Posts:0
| | 11/13/2007 11:39 AM |
Alert | FYI Trecia,
I have emailed Joe several times over the last year, with my official name and have never received a response from him. So I'm not buying the email route will work. He doesn't respond.
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| | gilbertglcn
Posts:228
| | 11/13/2007 12:55 PM |
Alert | In terms of the article on Roger Kolman, from this person's perspective it is all true. I have seen Roger belittle people; includng other department staff, department heads, council members, his own staff. By belittling, I am taking unprofessionalism, name calling, yelling, and being vindictive. The City of Maricopa has bred a culture of non-trust, non-competency, and an air that the public is the enemy. As a result, anytime a member of the press, the public, the council, a fellow staff member, another agency, questions anything, they are the enemy.
This culture has bred the attitude that whatever I do as a city employee, I can do. I don't care if it is not correct, ends up costing the citizens more money, or creates a hazardous environment for staff to work in. Some staff take advantage of this, especially some of the ones higher up within the organization, and refuse to do their job, and concentrate on making those around them failures. It is easier for someone who does not have the competency to do their work to bring everyone down around them. Hence, a Finance Director who likely feared the HIGHLY qualified Police Deparment Chief candidate, who spent his career in a HIGHLY professional, large municipal government. A person such as this could show city management and the City Council the reality of a situation, not an individual person's warped opinion on something.
Unfortuately, some will never believe that a person is capable of prejudicial attitudes in this day and age. In any day and age, those who have a low opinion of their own abilities, who are not capable of leading their own staff, let alone the city as a whole, are capable of prejudicial, sexist, and HIGHLY unprofessional behaviors.
The result of all of this? A poorly managed city (as there is a true leadership void), poor hiring decisions, resulting in staff at many levels having the lack of abilities, training, education and experience to do their job, and a public that is left out of their own city.
The council has known of these concerns for a long time, not only with Roger, but with other staff, but they for whatever reason do not want to take action. Perhaps it is because when they do act, it makes the problems worse not better. I think the city is worse off with Roger than it was with Rick, and since Rick is the one who created the culture, that is not a positive statement.
As a community, each of us needs to stay involved, ask questions, contact our council members, attend meetings, listen to what the current council and the council candidates hqave to say. This situation is just a symptom of a problem that runs very deep in the city government. It will take having several city employees leaving their positions at the city, and a lot of hard work to change the attitudes of existing staff.
The people are not the enemy, they are who we are in business to serve. Unfortunatly, those few city staffers that try to serve are constantly brought down, berated, belittled, and called into question, because they dare to say, that might not be the best way to handle a particular situation. The environment is one of I can't do my job, so I will go out of my way to make your work harder, and then blame you for the failures that occur. That way, I look better. | | | |
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| | Tempter
Posts:41
| | 11/13/2007 1:11 PM |
Alert | | I am amazed at how many people know what goes on inside city hall without ever being there. They don't speak for the majority of the people that work for the city and if they have ever worked there, then the city is probably better off without them. It wouldn't be the first time an employee didn't like their new boss and it will not be the last. | | | |
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| | DesertDweller
Posts:2569
| | 11/14/2007 12:25 AM |
Alert | Gilbertglcn, it's too bad you can't go on the record. Someone needs to address the tyranny that's become commonplace with leaders at city hall. I can't imagine having to work in an environment like that.
In a company, this lack of management would not be tolerated. If it were middle management, senior management would act to remove the incompetents from their position. If it was very senior management, as is the case here, then word would get to shareholders or board members. People with a financial interest in an organization keep an eye on what's going on in order to protect their investment.
In this case, the shareholders are the citizens of Maricopa. The board of directors is the city council. The next council meeting should be packed with outraged citizens wanting to know why something isn't being done to remedy this situation.
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Stupid should hurt!
Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006 | |
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| | GilaGuy
Posts:789
| | 11/14/2007 12:53 AM |
Alert | Posted By luv the copa on 11/13/2007 9:42 AM
DD had a good point that there are different media outlets that he could talk to, that does take time....but don't hold your breath on him getting on here for you guys to shred again. Honestly, you all know you would do the same thing.
If by "you know you would do the same thing" you mean the rest of us would flash badges at DPS and at a local business owner in an attempt to intimidate them, you're dead wrong. If by that statement you mean to say the rest of us would cower under a rock while untrue allegations were being bandied around about us, once again you're dead wrong.
Nobody who is being unjustifiably attacked with slanderous lies sits on their laurels and lets it happen. Nobody who has had a wild stories concocted out of thin air about them sits around, shrugs, and says "ah well, no big deal." Nobody who has legitimately been wronged by a vengeful individual who has invented malicious things about him decides the better route is not to say something in his own defense. That is absolutely nonsensical. And frankly, if that's the way Mister Estes feels, then he's even more devoid of leadership qualities than was previously thought. (Do we really want someone on our council who knows the truth about something but would rather not disclose it?)
If there is a logical explanation for this (though it seems less likely with each passing day of silence), let's hear it. The notion that "it takes time" to rattle off an email to any other media outlet deemed "favorable" by Mister Estes is ridiculous. After all, you've found plenty of time coming here to defend the man in a place he apparently fears to tread. His silence is deafening. | | | |
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| | momeeof3
Posts:15
| | 11/14/2007 11:03 AM |
Alert | As for the Estes articles…I have to thank the Estes supporters on this thread. They have single handedly driven many of the “on the fence” folks to contact us to sign the petition. In their efforts to help Joe they actually have done him harm....
How long has it been since this whole petition started?
Are you telling the whole forum that you don't have the 50 signatures needed yet? You have how many people live in Maricopa and you can't get a measily 50 signatures?
WOW how quick you are to judge and yet you don't seem to have a pot to piss in!!!!
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| | Tempter
Posts:41
| | 11/14/2007 1:22 PM |
Alert | Mommee,
Keep in mind these are the same people who have walked in and out of the city offices trying to drum up support for the recall. Their time is coming to an end so now they are desperate and will do anything to keep the issue in front of anyone who will listen. In the end it only comes out as gossip. Ask any of them if they have ever run a city? They have no experience in managing anything on this scale, nor do they understand the tremendous pressure that comes with trying to please everyone. Tough decisions must be made and those decisions are not always popular.
Monday morning quarterbacks are abundant in every community and their critiques on issues will never be silenced. That criticism comes with the territory and only the thick skinned survive. These people are like sharks in the water, when they think they smell blood they attack.
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| | MaytagMan
Posts:43
| | 11/14/2007 2:08 PM |
Alert | | It must not be to hard if Roger has time to post his opinions here!! | | | |
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| | uprvr
Posts:61
| | 11/14/2007 3:06 PM |
Alert | Posted By MaytagMan on 11/14/2007 2:08 PM
It must not be to hard if Roger has time to post his opinions here!!
Roger posted on here? I must have missed that. | | | |
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| | MaytagMan
Posts:43
| | 11/14/2007 3:29 PM |
Alert | Posted By uprvr on 11/14/2007 3:06 PM Posted By MaytagMan on 11/14/2007 2:08 PM
It must not be to hard if Roger has time to post his opinions here!! Roger posted on here? I must have missed that.
Must be blinded by temptation!! | | | |
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| | momeeof3
Posts:15
| | 11/14/2007 4:15 PM |
Alert | Posted By golf_rules2 on 11/13/2007 11:39 AM
FYI Trecia,
I have emailed Joe several times over the last year, with my official name and have never received a response from him. So I'm not buying the email route will work. He doesn't respond.
I know that I am not Trecia , but I have emailed Joe Estes in the past and feel very confident in his ability to answer emails. He answered all of my questions with out hesitation. I have also called him a number of times and found him to very willing to speak about anything I have ever needed him to talk about. I have also contacted other counsil members and spoken with them and they have always been more then helpful to me. Not sure why you didn't get a response. | | | |
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