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Subject: Church Profits 45M Plus / Is that OK?
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azcarcarrierUser is Offline

Posts:306

02/19/2008 9:39 PM Alert 

The city park/church property deal cost the city koffers 45M plus costs of who knows what.  Why the purchase amount and the resale figure was kept so secret really baffles me.  Marty McDonald should concentrate on recreation and let some of the pros on the council do the next deal.   LOL   This deal really suprised me when the vice mayor recused himself.  Again most real estate deals rarely let the buyer/seller  and  the side deal comingle like they did in this transaction.  I find it really hard with all the current and potential council members so entertwined so deeply.   Show me a legitimate appraisal and site plans along with parking requirements for  2 soccer fields in 10acres.  Their just seemed to be alot of questions and answers passed by before approving a purchase recommended by the rec. manager. 

JasonUser is Offline

Posts:3378


02/19/2008 9:48 PM Alert 
Your "reporting" seems rather one sided. How much will the deal cost the church?

Joined: Jul 2005
TheSmokingGunUser is Offline

Posts:0

02/19/2008 10:04 PM Alert 
45 million? wow. probably sub out the M with a K there Mr. Wonderful. How about this: city buys land below market value, saving taxpayers money. Ah, but it's easy to post your side of the deal.
bear downUser is Offline

Posts:61

02/20/2008 7:29 AM Alert 
Azcarcarrier - For someone to profess so much knowledge about real estate, where on earth did you get that number? In every reported news source, it's $700,000 and the city is buying the land at under appraisal. THIS is the time that the city should be buying land and "banking" it. In a downturn. There are so many doomsayers and people fraught with a "conspiracy" theory that they can't separate a "good" deal from a "bad" one. Marty McDonald has done a tremendous amount for this city and will continue to do so. It's extremely dangerous to throw a number out there like that with no verification. And, by past posts, you've done "many" real estate deals. How prudent do you think it is to divulge all the details before you reach a deal?
azcarcarrierUser is Offline

Posts:306

02/20/2008 8:12 AM Alert 

Sorry Smokin Gun and Bear Down, I was sitting right there listening to the whole presentation.   As a gentlemen said to the council why are we paying a premuim to the church to buy the property ?  You would think that the council would have had more than one question concerning a purchase and deal like this.  The decision has been made and we'll just sit back and see what happens in regards to costs and use. Showing the projected look of the addition should of been available to the citizens prior to the final decision  vote, so why was there such a delay ?  I'm not sure but I think 45M means 45,000.00

RabbitUser is Offline

Posts:250

02/20/2008 9:00 AM Alert 
45M means 45,000.00


wouldnt that be 45,000,000.00?
i havent followed this whole thing, but from the story on the front page, the church is selling the land to the city for 700k...with a profit of 2700 per acre...which, if my math is correct (and it is, though im not sure the profit per acre number) is a profit of 27,000.00 on the land. a bigger park is cool...more parking is a good thing. especially for all the big events that happen over there.

"Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don't know what your rights are, or who the person is you're talking to. Then on the way out, slam the door."
azcarcarrierUser is Offline

Posts:306

02/20/2008 9:48 AM Alert 

Complete secrecy to the citizens, then a real short justification, and then let's vote.  That seems to be real shakey way to do a 3/4 million dollars plus deal.Was there a problem of showing to the media the proposed project if all parties come agreement?  Where was the quote 80M per acre appraisal justifying the purchase price.  I have get to the airport, so work on these questions and maybe more sense can be made of this project.  By the way I wonder if there is a better site plan for the property use than parking lot location priority one.  I question 2 soccer fields and a few paths with play areas in 10 acres.  Maybe relocating the parking area would give the rec. dept. more bang for the dollar.

JasonUser is Offline

Posts:3378


02/20/2008 10:13 AM Alert 
Posted By azcarcarrier on 02/20/2008 8:12 AM

I'm not sure but I think 45M means 45,000.00



Bingo, we have our problem!

Tell us, if the church is making a profit of 45M, what are they being paid by the city and what is the church's cost to acquire the property? If you were sitting right there, it should be no trouble, right?


Joined: Jul 2005
JasonUser is Offline

Posts:3378


02/20/2008 10:30 AM Alert 

Newsflash: Fearmongering by azcarcarrier turns out to be wildly inaccurate. The front page article shows that the profit will be about $2,700 per acre, or $27,000 total. Turns out azcarcarrier's figure was off by $44,973,000.

To answer the original question, yes, I think that's OK.


Joined: Jul 2005
SinbadUser is Offline

Posts:3046


02/20/2008 10:36 AM Alert 
See..

I don't care how you look at it. This deal was done in a back room with the church and the city. Just like Rick Bus severance package. They keep it so hush hush because they new that this was not the right thing to do. The City goverment is in Bed with a Church now.

Here's my problem with this deal.

1. Before they built the park, they did a population growth projection. This projection was used to decide how big the park would have to be for now until they can build the next big park. They built this park and the population growth that was estimated hasn't been reached yet. So, Why do we need a bigger park? Why not wait for the huge park that should be buit soon?

2. This was more of the same back room politic's that I thought ALL of you were against. I thought the we were trying to call out for CHANGE in the way the city is being ran? But here you are backing a deal that the COH couldn't have made without the cities help. No way .. No how! Believe it or not, I assume that we could look forward to more of these types of deal when Mr. Smith comes to office.


3. Let's just say it's Sunday. Our kids have a game on that field. You pull in and BAM! You can't find parking spot because church is in service and some other parents beat you to the left over spots. I wonder how those Warm and Fuzzy feeling about this deal will hold up.

4. A Commmunity Center? That is ran by and Maintained by the church? So they can approve how you can use it or not use it or how it will be used. How does that benefit the people that "DON'T" believe in God? Are they going to make sure that the religious material are only brought out on Sunday? Once again, it's a wedding reception... can we have alcohol in the building?


So, to me no matter how you slice it... This deal was handled in the same manner as all of the other deals the current city goverment has done in the past... in a back room and behind the citizens backs. Just read the front page... they say so themselves.

Just doing it one day at a time. Change is good and it should be looked upon as an improvment! not a problem.
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JasonUser is Offline

Posts:3378


02/20/2008 10:55 AM Alert 

Joined: Jul 2005
CODEBLEUUser is Offline

Posts:202

02/20/2008 10:56 AM Alert 
It does no good to complain now. The fun with the comingling is only beginning here. The only good thing I see out of this fiasco is we now know who not to vote for in the upcoming elections.
AZGONZOUser is Offline

Posts:9

02/20/2008 1:21 PM Alert 
If the city council and city workers were straight forword with their ideals and actions, no one would accuse them of doing wrong. All tax payers have the right to know what the next purchase is going to be and have a saying on it. Not after the fact the deal was done or almost complete. All this will come out sooner or later. Maybe we should get rid of all the current city council members and key city workers and start from scratch?
kenUser is Offline

Posts:531


02/20/2008 1:25 PM Alert 
All this talk about back room deals and such is crazy. You all accuse the city of not revealing any details when they were clearly presented as they should have been at the city counsel meeting. How else do you suggest these kind of things should happen? Are we supposed to tape every conversation that happens at city hall for playback later? To think the city is not allowed to conduct negotiations before the actual meeting is ludicrous and to expect the city to reveal all the details of those negotiations before they are complete is counter intuitive as it may spoil any upper hand the city may have in dealing with other parties. As I've said in the past... this deal is not the issue everyone is saying it is. In fact it is really a good example of how well the city can run.

"Knowledge is often mistaken for intelligence. This is like mistaking a cup of milk for a cow." -- Unknown
RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

02/20/2008 1:25 PM Alert 
Posted By Jason on 02/20/2008 10:30 AM

Newsflash: Fearmongering by azcarcarrier turns out to be wildly inaccurate. The front page article shows that the profit will be about $2,700 per acre, or $27,000 total. Turns out azcarcarrier's figure was off by $44,973,000.

To answer the original question, yes, I think that's OK.

 

 

 

So, the church is profiting 27k and they are getting a free parking lot.  They must know someone in city government to get that sweet deal.

 

JasonUser is Offline

Posts:3378


02/20/2008 1:36 PM Alert 

So, the church is profiting 27k and they are getting a free parking lot. They must know someone in city government to get that sweet deal.


The parking lot is for the park. You're saying that the citizens who paid for it can't use it just because they go to a church?

Speaking of sweet deals, it looks like we're getting a building to use too.

 

I'm not entirely sure about the $27,000 profit either. 85239 didn't report the actual cost for the church to acquire, so there may be no profit at all.


Joined: Jul 2005
RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

02/20/2008 1:43 PM Alert 

I would agree about the parking lot, if the church had their own.  Good luck trying to park there on a Sunday.  You should be in church and not at the park, anyway. 

 

A buidling that we can use 'at the discretion of the church'. 

frowfamUser is Offline

Posts:16

02/20/2008 1:44 PM Alert 
I love how this church is showing its true commercial mindset. Like I said on the news article comments section. If this was a true to heart church they should be building the parking lot on their land and then allow the public to use the parking. Instead the church is going to make a profit by selling the land for a profit to the city, and then gets a $10 a year parking lot. This is just insane. Some people seem to be ok with the deal, but that is probably because they are not viewing the church as a business, which is exactly what it is. Think about it like this. If this deal was not with a Church, but rather with a grocery store, would you be ok with it then?

In the end its still about a local business getting some local officials to get the city to pay a HUGE chunk of their expenses, which in turns that the citizens of maricopa will be paying for this churches parking lot, which is an essential business component, and will give this business an unfair advantage over competing business around the city.
TheSmokingGunUser is Offline

Posts:0

02/20/2008 1:51 PM Alert 

I'm critical of government...always have been.  But in this case there is protocol to follow.  You do not discuss things like this on internet forums without placing in front of the council first.  I own a dry cleaning business here in town.  If my cashier were to discuss potential business changes with customers before discussing them with me, I'd be wrong.  As the owner, she can present ideas to me and then I give her direction to sample customers or we take action and move forward.  To allege that this is a back room deal is absurd.  The facts are there.  This is a good deal for the city and it's residents.  And I can tell you that land on Porter Road is very expsensive.  A leasing agent for Shea Properties, the WalMart center informed me that a project just closed at $6 per square foot at Bowlin and Porter, which is roughly $275,000 per acre.   This property is just about a 0.75 miles south of the park.

frowfamUser is Offline

Posts:16

02/20/2008 1:59 PM Alert 
SmokingGun,

I tend to agree on the purchasing of the land, if the land is cheaper this way then that is good for the city. The bad thing is the city maintaining the parking lot for a church, that just does not make sense. Sure they might only use it sunday morning and a few times a week with smaller numbers, but you can already see the wacky christians saying that people should be in church on sunday instead of at the park. So there is going to be a conflict there. Also how Christian is it for the church to make a profit off the city that it is located in? It already makes a profit off of the citizens that show up, but this was its making a profit off of all of us, which is their ultimate goal but still has moral complications on how they are going about doing this. Its like the city is willing to deal with the church as if it was a business to purchase the land, but then after that they treat it like a non-profit / community project and accommodate its running of business by providing a essential and expensive service at almost no cost ($10 a year, what a joke).
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