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| | Author | Messages | |
caveman
Posts:1065
 | | 01/23/2008 10:02 PM |
 Alert | | Granny cool out. I would like to hear some honest debate here. Bush and his group of cronies have been lying to us for a long time. I don't care what side you are on with politics it is very clear that Bush is a scumbag and started a war over a false pretense. Whenever you criticize Bush people love to jump in about Clinton but this issue is about Bush and not Clinton so stop deflecting it. Granny your last two posts were unintelligible garbage but if you would like to debate this please do so instead of trolling, thank you. | | | |
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| | Granny5X
Posts:361
| | 01/23/2008 10:16 PM |
Alert | Wow! You cool out scumbag!!! The Pot Calling The Kettle Black! You call our president a scumbag? THE FALSE PRETENSE WAS HILLERY CLINTON!!!!!!! God!! GO BACK TO SCHOOL!!!!!! YOU PUNK!!!!! Talk about garbage. Pick up was today! Where were you!
This is the last that I lower myself to your pitiful level. I am alot better than this, I am sorry that I "CAVED" in to your level.
GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS FOR THEY SUPPLY THE FREEDOM YOU SO CHOOSE TO SLAM.
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"Your future is a rainbow of beautiful memories when you hold a dream in your heart" | |
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| | GilaGuy
Posts:789
| | 01/23/2008 10:44 PM |
Alert | Posted By caveman on 01/23/2008 10:02 PM
Granny cool out. I would like to hear some honest debate here. Bush and his group of cronies have been lying to us for a long time. I don't care what side you are on with politics it is very clear that Bush is a scumbag and started a war over a false pretense. Whenever you criticize Bush people love to jump in about Clinton but this issue is about Bush and not Clinton so stop deflecting it...
Nope, the real issue is also about Bill Clinton. (And, if you believe folks like Dick Morris who was a trusted adviser; his wife Hillary, whom he says pushed Bill into Operation Desert Fox.)
The notion that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction came about long before Bush was in office, and will never, ever be fully understood. The reasons for the latter are twofold, primarily because too much time was lost with the Scott Ritter/UN missions to get Saddam to comply and much of what was likely there (whether it was WMD or conventional ballistic tech) was smuggled into Syria; but also because the entire affair has become so politicized that any investigations will be scrutinized down to the minutia and be deemed irrelevant by someone on either side. (The speculation about Syria is partially based on the same Israeli intelligence report that correctly located and identified a Syrian underground nuclear site which was bombed by the Israeli Air Force in September of 2007.)
Indeed, George Bush Sr made the decision to stop the US Army's advance into Baghdad for fear of winding up in an occupation which would cost more American lives than it was worth. Since then, he has claimed that his failure to completely oust Saddam was a mistake, because it did allow for him to continue to brutalize his own people. The first inklings that Saddam Hussein was either attempting to restart a WMD program or had already done so came about in a report issued in 1992. This, of course, was an election year. So the public heard very little of this. Neither Clinton (whose "its the economy, stupid" plan was based upon cutting defense spending and applying money elsewhere) nor Bush (whose failure to oust Saddam was the reason he was able to restart his WMD programs) had any interest or anything to gain in making any political hay out of the report.
Bill Clinton knew all about Iraq's WMD ambitions, though he never made the extent clear to the American public until it was politically expedient. Cynics noted that the times he was most keen on attacking Iraq were the same times the press was hitting him hard at home for alleged incidents of malfeasance. And yes, Operation Desert Fox took place at the height of the Monica Lewinsky saga which ultimately led to Clinton's impeachment proceedings.
One can draw from that whatever one wants, the point is that if one insists upon blaming George Bush for the war in Iraq, one needs to apply the exact same blame at his predecessor for setting in motion the chain of events. Madeline Albright, who recently called Bush the "worst president ever," was all in favor of attacking Iraq for it's WMD programs, and was on every political talk show defending Clinton for it. Both Bill and Hillary Clinton were all in favor of the attack, citing sources that "proved" Iraq not only had the capability of manufacturing WMD, but actually possessed it. Prior to Operation Desert Fox, Bill Clinton's ambassador Peter Burleigh pulled the UNSCOM inspectors out of Iraq so they wouldn't be injured or killed. Clinton then turned around and told the public that Iraq had "kicked UNSCOM out" and used this as part of his justification for the attack. Lies, evidently, were rampant where Iraq was concerned.
The links to Al-Qaeda were tenuous at best. It is now known that Saddam had little coordination with them at all...but he did have the desire. Saddam admired those who were able to stick a finger in the eye of America, and sought to aid America's enemies financially as well as politically, even when it was to his detriment. Any coordination with the predominantly Shia Al-Qaeda certainly would have been detrimental to his band of Sunnis, but madmen do mad things. Bush clearly overplayed his hand on this issue, but I can't fault him too much for it...because if he'd never mentioned it and Saddam had provided Al-Qaeda with the money to organize another operation against our nation, he'd be feeling the heat for that as well. It was never a winnable PR position to be in.
This can go on and on and on. The point of this diatribe is that absolutely nothing that occurred under President Bush happened in a vacuum. There were years and years of either bad intelligence or rampant speculation which had been shoved down the throats of the American media, the American public, and the American State Department...the vast majority of which came directly down the pipe from the days of the Clinton Administration. The same stories were told by two successive Administrations, both of whom launched attacks under the same pretenses. If you want to condemn both, that is your right to do so. But you cannot single out one party when both fed the flames. | | | |
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| | Granny5X
Posts:361
| | 01/23/2008 11:01 PM |
Alert | Thank you GilaGuy. You are breathe of fresh air. You should write a history book.
I don't know if you took the time to write this, or if you pasted it, but either way I commend you. What an eye opener.
I just hope that everyone that views this thread takes the time to read all of it.
No typo's perfect punctuation (as far as I can tell)
Based on this could you be a write-in?
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"Your future is a rainbow of beautiful memories when you hold a dream in your heart" | |
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| | GilaGuy
Posts:789
| | 01/23/2008 11:36 PM |
Alert | Posted By Granny5X on 01/23/2008 11:01 PM
Thank you GilaGuy. You are breathe of fresh air. You should write a history book.
I don't know if you took the time to write this, or if you pasted it, but either way I commend you. What an eye opener.
I just hope that everyone that views this thread takes the time to read all of it.
No typo's perfect punctuation (as far as I can tell)
Based on this could you be a write-in?
Thank you Granny, that is very kind of you to say. 
No, I do not paste. All of my posts are from my own mind, which explains the run-on sentences and the extreme lengths. Real writers are much better at cutting things down and whatnot. The perfect punctuation and lack of typos is an illusion...I cheat by reading the post after I post it, and then going back to correct all the errors (hopefully) before anyone sees 'em.
And no, my darling, I don't think it is wise to make me a write-in. In this nation of ours you are certainly free to do so, but I'd probably make a poor candidate. You see, I have little patience for the sorts of obfuscation, selective outrage, and historical revisionism that predicates threads like this one. And those are the same sorts of things one needs to work well with in politics! | | | |
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| | Granny5X
Posts:361
| | 01/23/2008 11:48 PM |
Alert | Point well made. With all due respect, you did work very well with this thread. You drew me back into center. I now stand tall, and almost feel tasered into truthisms.
Your avatar draws respect from me as well. Thank you for the calming effect you have had on me.
Again, I am truly impressed.
Good Night, and God Bless America
Granny5x
PS: Very proundly, soon to be 6X | |
"Your future is a rainbow of beautiful memories when you hold a dream in your heart" | |
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|  | drummer72
Posts:3535
| | 01/23/2008 11:54 PM |
Alert | Posted By Granny5X on 01/23/2008 6:46 PM
I only have this to say: PEOPLE LIKE YOU SHOULD LEAVE THE UNITED STATES.
Until you post here on 85239 where you got the so called article, who wrote the so called article, who published the so called article, and who endorsed the so called article, I consider you a so called COMMIE
Chill out, Granny. Just accept tha fact that Bush sucks. Go ahead, call me a commie! | |
"Everything for everyone and nothing for ourselves" | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 01/24/2008 12:01 AM |
Alert | You jumped the gun there caveman, you forgot to paste this part:
Warning: The Content in this Article May be Inaccurate
Readers have reported that this story contains information that may not be accurate.
I mean, while you're cutting and pasting, you might as well get the whole thing, right? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:2424
| | 01/24/2008 8:17 AM |
Alert | Both Democrats and Republicans are to blame for the mess in the Middle East. Foreign policy needs to change, we need to be careful who we pick as allies today because they might be our enemies tomorrow. Supporting "freedom fighters" in the 1980's to fight the Soviet Union has come back to haunt us, as these are members of the Taliban and other terrorist cells.
The answer to it all is alternate sources of energy, so we would not need oil and can let the Middle East fight amongst themselves like they have been for 2000 years. But then you get big oil business and lobbyists involved, because then they would be out of business. Money talks, and big business likes to pull the strings of the government. | |
"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | missPolitick
Posts:643
| | 01/24/2008 8:29 AM |
Alert | The study concluded that the statements "were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses."
That is someone's opinion, not factual information. Statements were made that were later proven false but that doesn't necessarily mean that they "were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses."
In my opinion, there are probably countless facts that are kept from us for our own good. I think if we knew the truth about every legitimate threat out there that we would be pretty humbled. If our gov. keeps some of this information from us for our own good, I'm glad. The statements they make to us in public aren't made up of every single piece of information they have on Iraq or Iran so I trust that they are moving forward based on many classified facts that cannot be shared with us, but I believe they try to tell us the bits and pieces that they can.
Please don't think you're smarter than our government. | |
Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:2424
| | 01/24/2008 9:04 AM |
Alert | | Agreed, but if people cannot question their government or allow the government to have too many "secrets"..............well you can kiss your freedoms goodbye............ | |
"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | missPolitick
Posts:643
| | 01/24/2008 9:23 AM |
Alert | | I tend to think that if all of the governments secrets were out on the table that we wouldn't be as safe in the long run. I just trust that they want the best for our country and that sometimes we don't need to know EVERYTHING. | |
Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage | |
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| | geewiz
Posts:323
| | 01/24/2008 9:25 AM |
Alert | | I did a study and found the people that don't support BUSH lie 99.9 % of the time. The other 0.01% they're sleeping and have have thier mouths shut. | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:2424
| | 01/24/2008 9:33 AM |
Alert | Wasn't that statement you just stated a lie? lol
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"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:2424
| | 01/24/2008 9:33 AM |
Alert | Posted By missPolitick on 01/24/2008 9:23 AM
I tend to think that if all of the governments secrets were out on the table that we wouldn't be as safe in the long run. I just trust that they want the best for our country and that sometimes we don't need to know EVERYTHING.
True True...... | |
"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | geewiz
Posts:323
| | 01/24/2008 9:34 AM |
Alert | | The weapons were there but the dumacrates delayed us from going in to Iraq long enough for thier friends to get them out. | | | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:2424
| | 01/24/2008 9:41 AM |
Alert | | A possibility........you are probably right. But that doesn't help the fact that we are still there and don't need to be. Saddam is dead and the people are able to vote for their leaders. Time to go. If they can't stop fighting amongst themselves that is their problem. They have cops now and an army. We didn't ask the French to hang out here after we kicked the poop out the British did we? | |
"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black | |
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| | djbaldwin
Posts:246
| | 01/24/2008 9:42 AM |
Alert | | I've served in Iraq twice, Iran once, Kuwait once and been deployed 4 other times to places around the world. I voted for bush twice. I remember hearing all the liberal media rhetoric about how bush lied about wmd's. After serving I still don't get it. I've been medically retired for a year and a half and it still baffles me that somehow so many people feel that by abandoning Iraq we are somehow supporting the soldiers that have or may die over there in the future. While serving I know of many instances where warheads with biological warfare agents were found. I personally saw remnants of labs to produce these weapons. We also know Saddam killed thousand's of Kurds with Nerve agents and other heavy Biological agents including Anthrax. I have seen the kind of change that has taken place in Iraq. I was there during the elections where I saw female's voting. To say there were no wmd's and that we have made things worse or have done no good there is a gross misinterpretation of the truth. I don't know every little thing that was done in the white house or in Congress but I do know what I saw with my own eyes. I also know many others I have treated as a green beret medic in the army that after all this still voted for bush twice. I think to say that supporting the democratic candidates and using rhetoric that suggests we all but overthrow the white house and the entire republican party is a great disrespect to me and to brothers in arms that have died in the desert and in previous wars. After all if we give up what did they sacrifice for? | |
"If everyone had the right priorities in life there would always be a shortage of fishing poles"
Mark Twain | |
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| | Granny5X
Posts:361
| | 01/24/2008 11:47 AM |
Alert | Where are all you Bush haters Now!??? Did reading djbaldwin's post kinda have you tongue tied, or you crawling away with your tails tucked between your legs?
Well, This soldier is tells it like it is, or you all going to call him a lair too?
Maybe you all should sign up and go over to see things for yourselves before you bash our troops. Your opinion is one thing, but to be so ignorant and unappreciative makes me ill!!!!
GOD BLESS YOU DJ!!! I SAY WE STAY THE COURSE.
Come on! Put your money where your mouth is now!!! | |
"Your future is a rainbow of beautiful memories when you hold a dream in your heart" | |
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| | caveman
Posts:1065
| | 01/24/2008 12:25 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 01/24/2008 12:01 AM You jumped the gun there caveman, you forgot to paste this part: Warning: The Content in this Article May be Inaccurate Readers have reported that this story contains information that may not be accurate. I mean, while you're cutting and pasting, you might as well get the whole thing, right?
Jason that article is fresh off of yahoo. Do you have anything to add or are you just trolling the thread? | | | |
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