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| | Author | Messages | |
CliffinAZ
Posts:405
 | | 12/28/2007 3:51 PM |
 Alert | | Is the brown cloud really all just blowing dust? | | | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 12/28/2007 5:12 PM |
Alert | In reference to the brown cloud, yes part of it is blowing dust. Dust causes people with respiratory problems difficulty. However, there is more than dust in those clouds and it is those other things that have the greatest effects on people with respiratory problems.
Brown Air in the Valley
Also according to CDIAC the US ranks number 1 when it comes to annual carbon dioxide emissions accounting for 22.2% of the world's CO2 emissions. (Population 300 million)
This is not true. | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | hastings1066
Posts:879
| | 12/28/2007 6:40 PM |
Alert | Sdmphx - To tout announced Chinese fuel economy standards or any other Chinese standards is an exercise in naivety. When the US does not meet its stated goals, a free press and the political opposition make sure that the facts are well known. When a Communist dictatorship does not meet standards it just announces that it did and shoots any who dare say nay.
As to your other comparisons between the US and China - will you give up your car and ride a bike to work, give up your house and live in small shack, and give up air conditioning next summer? You may be willing to live like a citizen of an undeveloped nation (ha!) but the Chinese sure don't want to . They are working as hard as they can to live as we do. I am sure that a billion plus of them would be glad to change places with you. | | | |
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| | AZ Dreaming
Posts:292
| | 12/29/2007 10:55 AM |
Alert | Global warming is one topic, poluted air is another. I'm very concerned with the air quality whether it's warming the atmosphere or not. Why? Because I have asthma and the air quality affects my quality of life. Also, studys show that asthma is rising at a very high rate world wide. Also, poluted air contributes to heart attacks. Finding ways to cleanup our air is something that should concern everyone for health reasons if nothing else.
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Senior Member
Joined July, 2005 | |
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| | Cactus Rob
Posts:1041
| | 12/29/2007 1:42 PM |
Alert | I just can't get very worried about global warming
I remember the 1970s when scientists were worried about GLOBAL COOLING and a NEW ICE AGE. And yes, then as now, many believed humans were to blame for the climate change.
Time and Newsweek published articles on the subject in 1974 after 1972 was so cold worldwide that many crops failed and there was fear that we were all going to starve to death.
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| | CliffinAZ
Posts:405
| | 12/30/2007 2:37 AM |
Alert | Posted By AZ Dreaming on 12/29/2007 10:55 AM
Global warming is one topic, poluted air is another. I'm very concerned with the air quality whether it's warming the atmosphere or not. Why? Because I have asthma and the air quality affects my quality of life. Also, studys show that asthma is rising at a very high rate world wide. Also, poluted air contributes to heart attacks. Finding ways to cleanup our air is something that should concern everyone for health reasons if nothing else.
I'm in complete agreement with you here--it's not the heat that concerns me, but the effects of all of the garbage I'm breathing in to my body--that much is solid science as well as being pretty self-evident, IMHO. The jury is still very much out on global warming... | | | |
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|  | sdmphx777
Posts:0
| | 12/31/2007 6:25 PM |
Alert | Posted By hastings1066 on 12/28/2007 6:40 PM
Sdmphx - To tout announced Chinese fuel economy standards or any other Chinese standards is an exercise in naivety. When the US does not meet its stated goals, a free press and the political opposition make sure that the facts are well known. When a Communist dictatorship does not meet standards it just announces that it did and shoots any who dare say nay.
As to your other comparisons between the US and China -will you give up your car and ride a bike to work, give up your house and live in small shack, and give up air conditioning next summer? You may be willing to live like a citizen of an undeveloped nation (ha!) but the Chinese sure don't want to . They are working as hard as they can to live as we do. I am sure that a billion plus of them would be glad to change places with you.
I was trying to show that when a vague statement is made that says that even if we improve, the big bad wolves (China and India) will just take our place is completely overexaggerated.
Also I see people disputing my data, I don't see any data to back up your claims (exception Jason). So until you are able to back up your arguments you will continue to spew falsehoods and half-truths because you simply don't have any data or facts to back-up your statements.
As for your per capita math...That is why I put in the countries population. Even if China passed us in CO2 emissions (which I did say will happen if it hasn't already) they still have 4 times the population. So each average Chinese citizen produces 1/4 the CO2 of the average American because of the reasons below.
I do enjoy living the American way of life but I do my part in cutting back on my environmental impact. I recycle 4 times what I throw away. I carpool to work 5 days a week. My car averages 35 mpg. I have xerascaping so I don't use an unnecessary amount of water. I have no pool. My thermostat is currently at 68F. My last electric bill was $55 and my home is 2000 sq. ft. I am by no means perfect but I will tell you I will never own a SUV or other gas guzzler, I will never have a pool, I will always recycle as much as possible, I will continue to carpool everyday.
China's press has nothing do with fuel efficiency standards. If a company wants to export cars to China they must meet these standards. It's pretty simple. Also, when the US doesn't meet its fuel standards, it's violation of law. So sure, the press will report that.
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| | sdmphx777
Posts:0
| | 12/31/2007 6:31 PM |
Alert | I suppose the AP cooked this one up too?
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/11/15/carbon.map.ap/index.html
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| | sdmphx777
Posts:0
| | 12/31/2007 6:35 PM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 12/28/2007 5:12 PM In reference to the brown cloud, yes part of it is blowing dust. Dust causes people with respiratory problems difficulty. However, there is more than dust in those clouds and it is those other things that have the greatest effects on people with respiratory problems. Brown Air in the ValleyAlso according to CDIAC the US ranks number 1 when it comes to annual carbon dioxide emissions accounting for 22.2% of the world's CO2 emissions. (Population 300 million) This is not true.
Thanks for the article...
"Jos Olivier, a senior scientist at the government agency who compiled the figures, said: "There will still be some uncertainty about the exact numbers, but this is the best and most up to date estimate available. China relies very heavily on coal and all of the recent trends show their emissions going up very quickly." China's emissions were 2% below those of the US in 2005. Per head of population, China's pollution remains relatively low - about a quarter of that in the US and half that of the UK."
Thanks for proving Gila Guy's math wrong...
I'm sure I can find more conflicting data to what you posted but it is useless to waste anymore time on this...the per capita CO2 emissions can't be disputed. Everyone needs to get off the USA high horse and learn that just because you love your country doesn't mean you can't be critical of it. I love it, but it doesn't mean it can't be better. | | | |
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| | mrhawk
Posts:57
| | 12/31/2007 11:14 PM |
Alert | Posted By Cactus Rob on 12/29/2007 1:42 PM
I just can't get very worried about global warming
I remember the 1970s when scientists were worried about GLOBAL COOLING and a NEW ICE AGE. And yes, then as now, many believed humans were to blame for the climate change.
Time and Newsweek published articles on the subject in 1974 after 1972 was so cold worldwide that many crops failed and there was fear that we were all going to starve to death.
Yes, this has been said before, and in reality, it was just a few people (some not even scientists) that had this theory, it gained some media traction, but was widely discounted by many actual scientists (more below).
Basically, there was one very abnormally cold year and a short term cooling trend that last a few years. Some believed the warming trend that had been occurring since the start of the industrial revolution was too unbelievable to continue, and the the short term cooling was a reset back to reality. As a result, there was a book (The Cooling) that predicted an ice age, and combined with that abnormally cold year and short term trend, there was a lot of buzz and speculation.
These Time and Newsweek articles (oft referenced by those who do not agree with Global Warming) all were consistent in use of the terms such as 'short term trend', 'incomplete data', 'fragmented data', 'many meteorologists disagree on the meaning', etc. The Newsweek article is still overly alarmist and a bit of shoddy reporting in my opinion, omitting key pieces of info from the National Academy of Sciences report. And much of this info, including transcripts of the articles are easily googled (though Rush Limbaugh's translation omits a few sentences).
So, in the 1970's there was a little speculation by a few people (many not even scientists) that gained some media traction, with widespread disagreement and uncertainty. That is a far cry from a blanket statement that "scientists were predicting a new ice age", but it makes for a great soundbite for Rush Limbaugh, Steven Milloy, and energy company dosiers.
Compare that to today, where the vast majority of scientists agree on global warming, and this basis is on a longer trend with tight correlations between historical CO2 levels (obtained from ice-cores), temperature, and the industrial revolution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change
The above provides a good cross-section of scientific opinion. | | | |
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| | Cactus Rob
Posts:1041
| | 01/01/2008 9:49 AM |
Alert | mrhawk,
The global warming advocates are simply on a power trip, using their predictions to control people. I think they borrowed the idea. Religious leaders have used prophecies, many times false, as a means of controlling people from biblical times to the present.
We can be very intelligent and still not know what we ought to know. Just my opinion!
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| | mrhawk
Posts:57
| | 01/01/2008 10:00 AM |
Alert | Agreed that only time will tell. Perhaps the earth will correct itself, or perhaps science is being mislead by other activities.
My point on the post I'd responded to was that just because a small, non-representative group had an incorrect theory on climate 30 years ago does not mean that today's large/consensus and representative group of scientists theory is incorrect. | | | |
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| | hastings1066
Posts:879
| | 01/01/2008 10:59 AM |
Alert | | The desire of the news media for exciting stories is skewing the debate over global warming. A few days ago, a member of the UN group studying the problem reported that the increase in global temps was about half of what had been reported. He stated that many temp readings were taken in urban areas that had greatly expanded in recent decades, exacerbating the “heat island” effect thus distorting the numbers. This report got almost no press attention. If he had reported the reverse, that the temp increase was twice that reported, it would have been front page news. “The sky is falling” makes for a much better story than "sky has a slight sag”. | | | |
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| | GilaGuy
Posts:789
| | 01/01/2008 3:15 PM |
Alert | Posted By sdmphx777 on 12/31/2007 6:35 PM
"Jos Olivier, a senior scientist at the government agency who compiled the figures, said: "There will still be some uncertainty about the exact numbers, but this is the best and most up to date estimate available. China relies very heavily on coal and all of the recent trends show their emissions going up very quickly." China's emissions were 2% below those of the US in 2005. Per head of population, China's pollution remains relatively low - about a quarter of that in the US and half that of the UK."
Thanks for proving Gila Guy's math wrong...
That didn't prove my math is wrong...my figures are from 2007. Those are from 2005. As previously stated, China surpassed the US in raw CO2 emissions this year. They are still behind the Us in per capita emissions, but will soon overtake us there as their economy continues heating up.
And you know, if you have any doubt that whatever we clean up will just be undone by India and China, I bring you the oil market as an example. Until relatively recently, we had the power in our own country to influence oil prices to a large extent. When our demand was high, prices shot up. As they shot up and we backed off of the demand, prices slackened. This level of price interaction is no longer possible now because the level of demand mainly from China and India has increased to such a point that we are no longer using a clear majority of the oil that is in play in the market. When US demand slackens, demand from China does not necessarily correlate, and prices do not follow the supply-demand curve that we saw previously.
It truly is a global market now, and the same goes for emissions. Any silly emissions protocol that does lets some countries of the proverbial hook is bound to accomplish nothing.
None of this has anything to do with being in the USA "high horse." Neither does it mean we cannot criticize or own country. But at some point, you have to wonder who benefits from the global warming hype. Hint: it isn't the American consumer. Plenty of us live in a similar fashion to the way you do, with recycling, energy-efficient appliances and bulbs, xeriscaping and minimal utilization of air conditioning and heating. Far more of us live this way than did ten, twenty, or fifty years ago. It would appear that members of this generation are far more conscious of their impact than members of previous generations, despite the alarmist "five years to save the planet" rhetoric we see on television. To criticize this country despite all that is to ignore what is going on all around you. | | | |
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| | rex
Posts:295
| | 01/01/2008 3:45 PM |
Alert |
Golly, you guys are smart. I use compact fluorescent bulbs because they're 13 watts instead of 100 watts. I'm cheap and shallow.
Go ahead and continue to duke it out while I save a ton of money by switching to CFL bulbs. :-) | | | |
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| | jhall
Posts:1237
| | 01/02/2008 6:51 AM |
Alert | http://www.local6.com/weather/14959516/detail.html
Daytona beach on a freeze warning... possible snow. hmmm ever notice how little global warming is in the news during the winter.... just a thought. | |
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
--Edmund Burke | |
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| | jhall
Posts:1237
| | 01/02/2008 6:52 AM |
Alert |  this heat just looks unbearable!!! | |
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
--Edmund Burke | |
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| | ChimneyDuck
Posts:230
| | 01/02/2008 10:10 AM |
Alert | | Brilliant! It's cold in the US in January! Global warming debunked! | |
http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride. | |
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| | jhall
Posts:1237
| | 01/02/2008 11:10 AM |
Alert | | Just like the ice bergs melting during the spring melt off.... what's this world coming too?!! | |
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
--Edmund Burke | |
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| | ChimneyDuck
Posts:230
| | 01/02/2008 1:35 PM |
Alert | Interesting.
So your position isn't just that there isn't evidence that man caused global warming, but that there is no global warming at all (a position far removed from the text cited.)
If that is the case perhaps you should post something more like a global temperature trend graph. That might support your argument a bit better. A picture of current wind chill tempertures of the US that doesn't even show real temperatures only warrants sarcasm. | |
http://www.maricopabikeclub.com - Join us for a bicycle ride. | |
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