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| | Author | Messages | |
bear down
Posts:62
 | | 09/20/2007 3:37 PM |
 Alert | Based on that comment Rather - your not using any hair dye.
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| | Desert Dawg
Posts:24
| | 09/20/2007 5:13 PM |
Alert | | The city is currently using grant money from ADOT for the consultants and studys. They are not taking our city funds that could be earmarked for other more pressing issues. It was also stated that if the airport is built that federal and state grants will pay for the majority of the airport. I believe it was someting to the tune of 72 million of the projected 75 million cost at full build out. The airport would have two runways and handle upto 737's. | | | |
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| | Fritzydoodle
Posts:1013
| | 09/20/2007 5:33 PM |
Alert | | Where did you get the two runways 11,000 in length? The report I read had one runway at between 4500 - 5400 - not even long enough for a small jet let alone a 737. | |
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| | chessman
Posts:250
| | 09/20/2007 7:42 PM |
Alert | And it doesn't matter where the tax dollars to pay for all of this comes from. Grants or not, this is still tax dollars being wasted by a city government.
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This message was composed entirely of 100% recycled electrons; minimum 35% post-consumer content. | |
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| | Jason
Posts:3378
| | 09/20/2007 7:51 PM |
Alert | | Are these grants for transportation or did ADOT say they could only be used for airport research? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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| | chessman
Posts:250
| | 09/21/2007 7:58 AM |
Alert | This was on the communicator website:
Ed Beauvais, Maricopa’s consultant for the airport feasibility study, reported that an airport is, indeed, feasible for Maricopa and asked the Council to approve going to the next phase, which is to select an airport site. Beauvais detailed an airport which would have two large runways that could accommodate an Airbus and 737s. The cost would be $72 million to build, but only $2 million would need to be spent by Maricopa with Federal funding kicking in the rest. As a result of the Council’s 6-0 approval, the airport development will stay on target for a possible 2010 opening. Site selection, a masterplan, and environmental impact studies will need to be completed before airport construction commences. The airport is to have “huge, huge economic benefits” for Maricopa, according to Council Member Will Dunn.
OK council, time for another reality check. This started out as a small municipal airport. Now Mr. Beauvais has you talked into a huge white elephant instead of a little white mouse.
Case in point: What you are talking about now is an airport that will compete with whatever they are calling the former Williams AFB these days. And what do you think the utilization rate is on that fully built and functioning, tower controlled field? Practically nil in the grand scheme of things. That is an airport with perfect geographic location to be successful and it isn't thriving or bringing buckets of money to the city.
How in the hell do you think you will build an airport from scratch that will do better? Building it with federal money is only part of the equation. How much will it cost the city to run it for how many years before it supports itself? Who will benefit from it? As a pilot I will tell you that you have your heads up and locked. | |
This message was composed entirely of 100% recycled electrons; minimum 35% post-consumer content. | |
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|  | Desert Dawg
Posts:24
| | 09/21/2007 8:29 AM |
Alert | Posted By Fritzydoodle on 09/20/2007 5:33 PM
Where did you get the two runways 11,000 in length? The report I read had one runway at between 4500 - 5400 - not even long enough for a small jet let alone a 737.
Hey Ditzy Noodle,
Maybe if you attended all council meetings you would have known what was said. Oh, I forgot you get your news from this forum and report it. The two runways have always been considered but would be built over time as the need arises.
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| | Desert Dawg
Posts:24
| | 09/21/2007 8:31 AM |
Alert | Posted By Jason on 09/20/2007 7:51 PM
Are these grants for transportation or did ADOT say they could only be used for airport research?
Jason,
The ADOT grant is for airports specifically and cannot fund other transportation needs. | | | |
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| | Desert Dawg
Posts:24
| | 09/21/2007 9:07 AM |
Alert | Posted By chessman on 09/20/2007 7:42 PM
And it doesn't matter where the tax dollars to pay for all of this comes from. Grants or not, this is still tax dollars being wasted by a city government.
This is not only being supported by the city. The state and federal governments see the need for more airports especially here with the tremendous population growth we are currently experiencing in Arizona and in paticular the Phoenix area. Maricopa county alone had 130,000+ people relocate there last year alone.
Have you seen the attending list of participants in the study. This reaches way beyond our city's limits and includes Phoenix and Tucson representatives that also believe more airports are needed to support the projected poulation and business expolsion.
Locating smaller regional airports near larger metropolitain areas will be the key to long term economic vitality in the future.
This project is not using resources that could be used for the more immediate needs of the city's transportation issues. Unfortunatly Pinal County let the majority of the growth happen without addressing the improvements to the infrastructure needed to support the currrent resident base. The city really cannot stop the over 40,000 rooftops that were approved prior to incorporation of Maricopa.
Are you recommending that we refuse the grant money? You understand that most grants are very specific and can only be used for the projects that are related. Should we let some other forward thinking entity get the benefit? Or should we take our head out of the sand and look beyond our borders? I know that I'm here for the long term and I'm glad we are looking to the future.
Flame away! | | | |
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| | chessman
Posts:250
| | 09/21/2007 9:21 AM |
Alert | Getting grant money is usually just a function of filling out the right forms. Yes, I suggest not applying for the grant money, not spending the grant money, and not wasting the grant money.
Yes, I've seen much of the study and am fully aware of what this project entails and who participates.
What I didn't see from the parts of the study that I have read is any business analysis showing the cost of operation and ROI. As taxpayers, we are the same as investors in any business. Let's see the financial analysis.
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This message was composed entirely of 100% recycled electrons; minimum 35% post-consumer content. | |
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| | fuego
Posts:54
| | 09/21/2007 10:34 AM |
Alert | Desert Dawg - Flame away!
Moi?
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| | Desert Dawg
Posts:24
| | 09/21/2007 10:36 AM |
Alert | Posted By chessman on 09/21/2007 9:21 AM
Getting grant money is usually just a function of filling out the right forms. Yes, I suggest not applying for the grant money, not spending the grant money, and not wasting the grant money.
Yes, I've seen much of the study and am fully aware of what this project entails and who participates.
What I didn't see from the parts of the study that I have read is any business analysis showing the cost of operation and ROI. As taxpayers, we are the same as investors in any business. Let's see the financial analysis.
Don't kid yourself government is in no way a business. And we the taxpayers really don't have any control over the decisions our government makes on a day to day basis. If it was than we wouldn't be doing half the things that are currently going on.
There is a ton of information available on the wab about the economic benefits that come with an airport. The concept is more of a long term strategy and investment that will reap great benefits and demonstrate to businesses/insitutions that Maricopa is a leader. It will also help to insure we won't be a bedroom community to a metropolis forever.
I believe that in the mid to long term the airport would produce so many positive economic opportunities and would position Maricopa as a preferred location to expand or develop new and exsisting businesses.
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| | Fritzydoodle
Posts:1013
| | 09/21/2007 10:41 AM |
Alert | Posted By Desert Dawg on 09/21/2007 8:29 AM Posted By Fritzydoodle on 09/20/2007 5:33 PM
Where did you get the two runways 11,000 in length? The report I read had one runway at between 4500 - 5400 - not even long enough for a small jet let alone a 737. Hey Ditzy Noodle, Maybe if you attended all council meetings you would have known what was said. Oh, I forgot you get your news from this forum and report it. The two runways have always been considered but would be built over time as the need arises.
Hey Desert Dope,
Thanks for the name calling. You'd do better to influence people by being adult and stick to the facts and not resort to juvenile tactics such as name calling. You're bias is showing.
You're right - I don't attend ALL the council meetings. I have commitments that prevent me from living at various council meetings. Oh well... that means I READ the reports issued. So I suggest YOU read the airport feasibility study posted on the City's website - see page 14, table 7,executive summary. Or are you telling us the City of Maricopa is distributing false information on the website and the truth is told only at the council meetings?
The initial development of the proposed boondoggle C-II calls for ONE runway 5,500 feet in length. No secondary runway noted until the long range plan.
Sorry, I hate to tell you, you can't land a 737 in 5,500 feet. Hey but feel free to try - just let me know when so we can be on hand with cameras to record the results of your momentous attempt.
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| | Fritzydoodle
Posts:1013
| | 09/21/2007 11:00 AM |
Alert | Posted By Desert Dawg on 09/21/2007 9:07 AM Posted By chessman on 09/20/2007 7:42 PM
And it doesn't matter where the tax dollars to pay for all of this comes from. Grants or not, this is still tax dollars being wasted by a city government.
This is not only being supported by the city. The state and federal governments see the need for more airports especially here with the tremendous population growth we are currently experiencing in Arizona and in paticular the Phoenix area. Maricopa county alone had 130,000+ people relocate there last year alone. Flame away!
Here's more reading for you regarding the financial impact of the airport on the City of Maricopa's budget Dawg... the executive summary page 18, table 10 - do you see where those numbers are in ? Those are negative dollars. That means the City of Maricopa is going to have to subsidize the airport to the tune of at least $174,000 per year during the initial development... subsidize to the tune of $131,000 during the intermediate development and perhaps make money a whopping $63,000 per year in the long range timeframe.
And please don't give me the economic contributions to the community bull. The report shows CG airport adding some 23million to the community. It's all how you work the numbers. Yes, there are several major and successful industrial businesses based at the CG airport. They are not there because it's an airport. They are there because the price of leasing the industrial land was attractive. Period.
So build an industrial park - get the same benefit. OH wait - better yet - let a private developer build it. And the City isn't responsible for the upkeep and ongoing costs.
Maricopa needs a reality check. Where is the money for next years city budget going to come from? Impact fees are only collected once. Some people are going to be in for a serious surprise when the funds are not there.
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| | Sinbad
Posts:3052
| | 09/21/2007 11:11 AM |
Alert | Posted By YZRacer on 09/19/2007 1:20 PM Posted By JillyBean on 09/19/2007 11:43 AM
God this makes my stomach turn.. WE DONT NEED A EFFING AIRPORT. I second that motion!
I third it... will someone fart it
OK.. We all need to show up at the next council meeting.
Someone pick a day and we need to let them know that this is a bad IDEA.
Sounds like more of the same!!! Back Door Politics | |
Just doing it one day at a time. Change is good and it should be looked upon as an improvment! not a problem.
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San Diego Super Chargers! GO!!!
Joined old forum March 2006
Post count: 3068 + these | |
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| | Sinbad
Posts:3052
| | 09/21/2007 11:25 AM |
Alert | Posted By Dan Rather on 09/20/2007 3:19 PM
So you guys know more than the government? Right.
This isn't Goverment in this city. This is what happens when you put farmers and land owners in city hall.
What type of Goverment services are there in the Copa? I haven't seen any. So how can you call this Goverment?
Hospital, Traffic problem, and Big business.....
We could do alot with that Airport Money!!
Why not take that money and build a Water park or a hudge city owned shopping center with movie theaters. What the heck is up with that Brand? We paid a consultant for that too!
We don't need an airport!...Not yet! | |
Just doing it one day at a time. Change is good and it should be looked upon as an improvment! not a problem.
______________________________________
***************************************
San Diego Super Chargers! GO!!!
Joined old forum March 2006
Post count: 3068 + these | |
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| | Desert Dawg
Posts:24
| | 09/21/2007 2:55 PM |
Alert | Posted By Sinbad on 09/21/2007 11:25 AM Posted By Dan Rather on 09/20/2007 3:19 PM
So you guys know more than the government? Right. We could do alot with that Airport Money!! Why not take that money and build a Water park or a hudge city owned shopping center with movie theaters. What the heck is up with that Brand? We paid a consultant for that too! We don't need an airport!...Not yet!
Sinbad,
Do you get it, the airport money is from a grant to fund only an airport. We can't apply for a grant and use the money for different things.
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| | 85239
Posts:0
| | 09/21/2007 4:34 PM |
Alert | I have a couple problems with the Airport Study.
The use of constant growth projections for aircraft are faulty. The patterns that were used to develop the matrix to determine the number of aircraft are 2 years old. That data is skewed to a completely different demographic than exists now or in the future in Maricopa.
Most of the registered aircraft in our area are for agricultural purposes. If the growth of the aircraft in our planning area was a result of agricultural use, and in the planning area the use of land for agricultural purposes is on the decline, you have to look at the new use of the land. That use is housing. In order to maintain the same level of increase in aircrafts registered to people in Maricopa you have to make the leap that there will be a need for residents who aren't farmers to have aircraft out here. They are grossly overestimating the number of aircraft that would be housed at a regional airport in Maricopa because they are not comparing apples to apples.
Next, look at the hidden numbers. The City of Maricopa would first be responsible for the $1.9 million for initial construction costs. However, there is nothing in the costs for bringing infrastructure to the 650 acres. Somebody has to pay to bring those things to make the dirt shovel ready. As the developer, it would fall on the City to pay for that. Next, look at the "Site Preparation". It only includes the initial 350 acres and the subsequent 250 acres for the airport. In order to make it viable, the City would be responsible for prepping the additional 100 acres. At the costs they are showing in the report, that is an additional $3.2 million to get everything ready to build the one thing that would make the airport attractive, the industrial and business park.
Out the door, the city would have to cough up $5.1 million plus the costs of bringing infrastructure to the site. On the conservative side, let's say that total number is $7-$8 million. Until I see a budget strategy that can accommodate that kind of financial liability, I don't know where we would find this stockpile of cash. We still need a city hall, we need a brick and mortar library, we need an aquatic center, we need roads finished, etc.
I am not opposed to an airport in Maricopa, but I am suspect of how it is supposed to happen now and where the money would come from to actually get it done, especially if it were to be at the expense of other, more pressing needs. | | | |
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| | Go Eagles
Posts:0
| | 09/22/2007 8:29 AM |
Alert | | With this quote copied from the 85239 story "Council members voted unanimously to approve the site selection study". It is obvious that this sitting city council is out of touch with its residents. Therefore, I don't care if bugs bunny is running against them in the next election I will vote for bugs before them. What is the mayor saying "where business still gets done with a handshake" or something to that affect. This government has got its pockets filled with some many other special interest they all have a personal/hidden agenda. It's the boys club and it needs to be ripped apart. What a disgrace. | | | |
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| | Tigg
Posts:549
| | 09/22/2007 10:54 AM |
Alert | Posted By Dan Rather on 09/20/2007 3:19 PM
So you guys know more than the government? Right.
To make this simple. . . yes. It's a sad fact, but still, yes. | | | |
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