TC.
Posts:0
 | | 07/29/2007 12:00 PM |
 Alert | It really is hard to have any views on this when the media reports it different than it happened. I wasn't there and I refuse to read too much into either side due to where it took place and the condition of the patrons/witnesses.
We live in a REALLY small town if everyone knows the ones in question. I couldn't identify them if they came to my door and were selling vacuums. I wouldn't be able to pick them out of a crowd of people in a restaurant/bar unless they were wearing their uniforms. I think a lot of people in this community spend far too much time at Ramsey's.
I don't know them personally nor do I need to know them personally, but every time I have seen them in public...they were pleasant and acted appropriately.
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/29/2007 12:03 PM |
Alert | I am also curious if nothing happened as it has been said, does that mean the people who "told" the story of what happened lied - ramsey and his employees?
Not necessarily. Ask 10 people who witness a car accident what happened and you'll get several different stories. That doesn't mean any of them are lying. | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/29/2007 12:03 PM |
Alert | It really is hard to have any views on this when the media reports it different than it happened.
You seem to be a bit biased. What if the way the media reported it is the way it happened? | |
Joined: Jul 2005 | |
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TC.
Posts:0
| | 07/29/2007 12:04 PM |
Alert | Jody.....that is why you don't believe everything you read. Especially what the media reports. It gets twisted and turned so much before it is printed.
Maybe I have just been around long enough to have learned this.
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/29/2007 12:18 PM |
Alert | It really is hard to have any views on this when the media reports it different than it happened.
Jody.....that is why you don't believe everything you read.
Might want to take some of your own advice... | |
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Fritzydoodle
Posts:976
| | 07/29/2007 12:45 PM |
Alert | Posted By TC. on 07/29/2007 12:04 PM
Jody.....that is why you don't believe everything you read. Especially what the media reports. It gets twisted and turned so much before it is printed.
Maybe I have just been around long enough to have learned this.
TC,
As a member of the media, we haven't reported very much on this situation because frankly - there hasn't been much information to report. Heresay and rumors abound but facts are limited.
FACT: There was an incident at Ramsey's on July 20th at approx 11:30pm.
FACT: The incident involved off-duty Maricopa firefighters and a bar patron, all of whom had been drinking.
FACT: There was a verbal altercation between the above individuals.
FACT: There was a single blow struck by a FF to the referenced patron.
FACT: PCSO was called regarding a disturbance at Ramsey's. The report I have does not identity who made the call.
FACT: The referenced patron was tazered by the PCSO deputy.
FACT: According to the PCSO, the officer's use of his department issue taser was justified.
OPINION: I have read the report and agree.
FACT: The person who was both punched and taz'd did not wish to pursue charges.
FACT: The City of Maricopa did not issue any press release until July 24th - four days after the incident occurred.
FACT: As of July 29th at 12:17PM when I write this - I have not received any additional communication from an official representative of the city regarding further information upto and including the termination of any of those involved.
While there have been editorials written and reported by the various media outlets - there has been no official information and releases concerning pending actions from the city.
Do I feel the City management has just shot themselves in the other foot? Yes.
Do I feel the City has failed to adequately establish policy and procedures for city employees? Yes.
Do I feel City management needs to take a serious look at top level management including the Human Capital director? Yes. It is her job to make certain everything is in place. The city has known for months about the assumption of the fire district. If items such as logo, uniforms and equipment inventories where considered and approved - who dropped the ball and didn't consider an employee code of conduct? It is SOP for police, fire and senior administrative level employees to have a code of conduct that defines on-duty and off-duty activities. Why isn't there one?
The excuse Maricopa is a new city is beginning to wear thin. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. There are 80 other cities in Arizona to copy from their policies and procedures. If it is good enough for Phoenix, Mesa, Tempe, Tucson, Casa Grande, Florence etc - it should be good enough for Maricopa.
This is a public relations field day and nightmare. It's time for the City of Maricopa to pull their collective head out of the sand (or wherever else it is located), stand up and take responsibility.
Personal opinion... did the punishment fit the crime? No. Neither firefighter deserved termination. Did they deserve to have the probationary period extended, forfeiture of pay by way of limited time-period suspension, or written reprimand with defined consequences for further incidents in their employment file? Yes, they did. Those two AND the others involved, including their Captain. When you are in a high supervisory capacity, it is your duty to prevent a situation from escalating. The evening should have ended earlier than it did.
The knee-jerk action/reaction from the City Council, City Manager and Human Capital director and Fire Department administration goes to show just how over their heads the city administration is at this point. The citizens of Maricopa have many reasons to be very afraid of the future at this point in time. You have handed $93.5 million dollars over to this group of individuals. Are you comfortable with their fiduciary handling of day to day operations? Imagine what they could do in a real emergency... | |
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chessman
Posts:244
| | 07/29/2007 12:52 PM |
Alert | Fritzydoodle nailed it.
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This message was composed entirely of 100% recycled electrons; minimum 35% post-consumer content. | |
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jensen
Posts:10
| | 07/29/2007 12:55 PM |
Alert | | The only reason this story got out was so Ramsey could try to save face and not get his liquor license taken away. Ramsey is the one who called the Monitor to report the story. Funny how none of the firefighters there did not have any fire department clothes on that would identify them as Maricopa firefighters. Also, funny how Ramsey was able to give every fire fighter who was there the names to PCSO. I do not know how many times I have been there and have seen people fallen down drunk and "BRAWLS" happen. As the owner, Ramsey is responsible that people do not get over served drinks. Also, he is responsible for providing security. How come Bashas has security on the weekends but a bar does not. I have also seen numerous underage people in his establishment. I for one am calling the liquor board and I am going to demand they do a formal investigation on his establishment. I have talked to a couple of PCSO deputies and they have all stated that they have been there numerous times for complaints, fights, and noise disturbances. He calls his place a family establishment, but I would never even dream of taking my children to his place. I will never ever step foot in his establishment again, and I for one hope it is shut down for good. | | | |
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Tigg
Posts:549
| | 07/29/2007 12:57 PM |
Alert | Very well said Fritzy. . .
It is downright frightening what would happen in a real emergency with these people in charge! And NO, I do not trust our $93.5 million in their hands - the only one at the city who's hands I currently trust with our money is Marty. From what I have seen, he has proven that he can manage money, get things done with it and make it go as far as he can possibly streatch it. He is GREAT at his job. On the rare occation that there is an issue, he man's up and owns it in a reasonable period of time and makes a plan of action to improve on that issue in the future.
For the rest of them, from what I have seen, they have not given me any sense of confidence in their abilities to handle a crisis or cash. | | | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/29/2007 1:07 PM |
Alert | FACT: PCSO was called regarding a disturbance at Ramsey's. The report I have does not identity who made the call.
How does that happen? How do they not know that a PCSO officer made the call? | |
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magnetic
Posts:111
| | 07/29/2007 1:17 PM |
Alert | | Probationary Fireman are responsible 100% for their actions. If they act like this off duty what are they like on duty? You are employed by the City of Maricopa and are under the influence of alcohol and involved in a bar room fight? You and your accomplice would of been fired the next day if I was your supervisor. Have a nice life. Bye Bye | |
25th Infantry Division
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Tropic Lightning
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Fritzydoodle
Posts:976
| | 07/29/2007 1:20 PM |
Alert | Information on the reports sent to media have redacted information. We are not given names that are not considered vital - such as accused and/or victim. In some cases - even the victims names have been removed. In the majority of reports, witness names are removed.
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utahjazzfan
Posts:96
| | 07/29/2007 1:32 PM |
Alert | Posted By magnetic on 07/29/2007 1:17 PM
Probationary Fireman are responsible 100% for their actions. If they act like this off duty what are they like on duty? You are employed by the City of Maricopa and are under the influence of alcohol and involved in a bar room fight? You and your accomplice would of been fired the next day if I was your supervisor. Have a nice life. Bye Bye
I can imagine what they are like on duty. Just as cocky and hard headed as they are off duty. Thats actually what I think FD and police for that matter should be like. They probably arent bad guys, but they are not pushovers either. You Magnetic would have done the same if someone had approached your Fiance. Atleast I hope you would.
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jensen
Posts:10
| | 07/29/2007 1:33 PM |
Alert | | Magnetic is such a tool, there is no way he would have a fiance. | | | |
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magnetic
Posts:111
| | 07/29/2007 1:39 PM |
Alert | | Herzog and Ashton you like to fight? Sign up for duty in Iraq. They are looking for a few good men. | |
25th Infantry Division
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Tropic Lightning
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DesertDweller
Posts:2559
| | 07/29/2007 1:44 PM |
Alert | Fritzydoodle said it for me too. Thanks for saving me a whole bunch of keystrokes.
It's amazing how a entry-level firefighter, whom they chose to terminate, had the guts to come on here and make an apology and explain his version of what happened when the city has not had the opportunity to reverse their current state of cranial-anal inversion long enough to do that same thing? Actually, it should be the Fire Chief doing that, but the powers that be felt themselves more competent and ordered him not to. So, where is the official PIO with a statement?
tap... tap... tap...
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Stupid should hurt!
Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006 | |
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cashton
Posts:4
| | 07/29/2007 3:04 PM |
Alert | | Just to clear things up. I was on my probationary year. 8 months on, 4 months from completeing it. Chris Hertzog has been on the job almost 2 years. He was not on probation. | | | |
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8523nyner
Posts:14
| | 07/29/2007 3:57 PM |
Alert | The Chief was right for firing you Ashton. You were on probation and should have known that any little mishap could have cost you your job. The probationary period is to allow departments to feel the person out and to see if they have what a takes to make a good fireman. You don't have what it takes. If you couldn't make through one year, you probably can't make the twenty. If your "young career" was so so important to you, you would have swallowed your pride and left the bar when things started going south.
Hertzog should have gotten a lot of unpaid time off to think about how stupid his little act was, but he should not have gotten fired. I would have suggested that Hertzog remain at the department, on the condition that he be put back onto the one year probationary period. Any deviation from department policy and send him packing.
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tank69
Posts:0
| | 07/29/2007 4:24 PM |
Alert | | I'm sorry? Would you have been sorry had you not been caught? You got what you deserved and now you must deal with it. | | | |
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sugarlumps
Posts:1
| | 07/29/2007 4:32 PM |
Alert | To add yet another perspective:
First of all, Cody, don't despair over this. You are young. This is not the end of your working career. It is just the beginning and you have learned a valuable lesson here. Many of us experienced work-force people have wished we had learned some of these lessons earlier in our own work life. It is REALLY hard to blow a probationary time when you are in your 40's. You have lots and lots of years ahead of you to prove that you have learned something and that you are a person of value and integrity.
Secondly, probation is just that - probation. When you start out on any new job, there is a period of time that your employer can terminate the relationship without even needing to tell you or anyone else the reason. It is written into every single employee manual for every job I have ever had - some of which were public positions and some for private corporations. There are many reasons for probation and is has proven, through the years, to be a very valuable thing in the working world.
Finally, to those of you spouting off about the city council, the city manager, etc... Knock it off. Grow up. Take a deep breath and try praying for and supporting those who have taken on this immense challenge of starting a new community in this day and age. Stop criticizing everything they are doing. If you had any grown-up courage at all, you would be in there asking what you can do to help instead of whining, moaning and threatening these people who are trying to do the best they can with what they have. And what is it they have? US! You and me - the whiners and complaining babies as well as those who are willing to help and are seeking ways to do just that. Help - don't hurt. It is OUR community. Make it YOURS.
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