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Subject: Do we really want to take religion out of Govt all together?
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JAGUser is Offline

Posts:528


06/30/2008 11:28 AM Alert 

Has there every been a succesful govt without some level of faith or religous foundation?

USSR is not a really great example, they slaughtered 10s of Millions, China?

drummer72User is Online

Posts:3616


06/30/2008 11:36 AM Alert 
How about we put this in the "religion" section, Jag? You have no problem thinking of other topics in that section.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe in God, but think it should stay out of politics. Not everyone believes in the same"God". Obama is a fine example! Some people THINK he is muslim and don't want to vote for him, for that reason alone.

"Everything for everyone and nothing for ourselves"
JAGUser is Offline

Posts:528


06/30/2008 11:52 AM Alert 

Because its political in nature, notice I did not say a particular religion, just religion.

People would not vote for Mitt because he was Mormon, people will not vote for Obama because he is a man, and people will not vote for McCain becuase he is old. People are just prejudice for the good or bad, your point is not very valid IMHO.

RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

06/30/2008 12:20 PM Alert 
Posted By JAG on 06/30/2008 11:28 AM

Has there every been a succesful govt without some level of faith or religous foundation?

USSR is not a really great example, they slaughtered 10s of Millions, China?

 

Governments have come and gone over the centuries and will continue to do so.  Believing in a god or all gods has had no effect on how long they were in power.  Except that in many cases, they used religion to keep their people in check.

 

 

 

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."

Seneca the Younger

JoeManUser is Offline

Posts:64

06/30/2008 12:30 PM Alert 
The US is a nation built on Christian principles. Many of the wonderful leaders of our nation were led by God in the their involvement with the creation of our nation. If you look at the wisdom provided by these leaders, you know they were led by God to create a nation that was strong and that provided free will to the extent that the US does. If you read the biographies of many of these leaders, they discuss their beliefs and how they followed God calling in many of their actions.

I think if you take God out of any part of our past or future, this country will decline quickly.

All you have to do is study the past to know much about the future.
RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

06/30/2008 12:37 PM Alert 

I believe that Albert Einstein said it best:

 

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein
JasonYUser is Offline

Posts:2589


06/30/2008 12:45 PM Alert 
"Experience hath shown, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."

--Thomas Jefferson

"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black
JAGUser is Offline

Posts:528


06/30/2008 1:08 PM Alert 
Posted By RichTig on 06/30/2008 12:20 PM

Governments have come and gone over the centuries and will continue to do so.  Believing in a god or all gods has had no effect on how long they were in power.  Except that in many cases, they used religion to keep their people in check.

My point is that when a Govt officially removes any form of religion in its office, they tend to come off the deep end. Like USSR, look how many people died under there regime, China is another. Both of these Govt are specifically atheistic.  

That said, is it not the Govt job to keep the people in check? Otherwise how would they protect the people natural rights that are deemed good for society?

JAGUser is Offline

Posts:528


06/30/2008 1:18 PM Alert 

JoeMan,

Thomas Jefferson saw God in an incredibly different light then a vast majority of Christians of that time and our modern time as well. In fact many of puritans were highly against the Declaration because it described God as an Universal Entity.

I think where the Genius of our Constitution is that we cannot base laws from a particular Faith, but we can allow faith to construct our moral compass and use that to rule the Govt. There is a big difference between the 2 actually.

RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

06/30/2008 1:24 PM Alert 
Posted By JAG on 06/30/2008 1:08 PM
Posted By RichTig on 06/30/2008 12:20 PM

Governments have come and gone over the centuries and will continue to do so.  Believing in a god or all gods has had no effect on how long they were in power.  Except that in many cases, they used religion to keep their people in check.

My point is that when a Govt officially removes any form of religion in its office, they tend to come off the deep end. Like USSR, look how many people died under there regime, China is another. Both of these Govt are specifically atheistic.  

That said, is it not the Govt job to keep the people in check? Otherwise how would they protect the people natural rights that are deemed good for society?

 

The USSR was felled by Communism, not Atheism. 

China has a better economy than we do and we owe them trillions of dollars.

desertgalUser is Offline

Posts:142


06/30/2008 1:44 PM Alert 

Posted By drummer72 on 06/30/2008 11:36 AM
How about we put this in the "religion" section, Jag? You have no problem thinking of other topics in that section.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe in God, but think it should stay out of politics. Not everyone believes in the same"God". Obama is a fine example! Some people THINK he is muslim and don't want to vote for him, for that reason alone.



ROTFL! How about the fact that he has no experience, is a tax-and-spend liberal, is a Marxist, evidently practices a form of Christianity where he thinks that there are many paths to God - that he may be a Muslim is only secondary.

 

 


Proud conservatives happily living on our acreage in the beautiful mountains of Hidden Valley with no HOA.
RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

06/30/2008 1:59 PM Alert 

I think someone has a crush on drummer72.

JasonYUser is Offline

Posts:2589


06/30/2008 2:22 PM Alert 
She wants to wear a burka for him..........lol

"My favorite health club is the International House of Pancakes" -- Lewis Black
cavemanUser is Offline

Posts:1078


06/30/2008 2:59 PM Alert 

Posted By JoeMan on 06/30/2008 12:30 PM

I think if you take God out of any part of our past or future, this country will decline quickly.

Our country has declined very quickly in the past year alone and that had nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with a spend and lower taxes conservative. If he was a true christian though then why is he so pro death penalty? Why did he send troops to fight a nation based on a lie? Bush has killed more Americans than Al Queda has in their entire history but he is a man of religion.

 

ReaganUser is Offline

Posts:737


06/30/2008 4:34 PM Alert 
Posted By caveman on 06/30/2008 2:59 PM

Posted By JoeMan on 06/30/2008 12:30 PM

I think if you take God out of any part of our past or future, this country will decline quickly.

Our country has declined very quickly in the past year alone and that had nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with a spend and lower taxes conservative. If he was a true christian though then why is he so pro death penalty? Why did he send troops to fight a nation based on a lie? Bush has killed more Americans than Al Queda has in their entire history but he is a man of religion.

 



So its Bush over there laying out road side bombs and IED's?  Are you really that stupid?  What is with you people thinking that America is at its end?  Yes oil has gone up.  Yes, the housing market has declined.  Don't act like these things have never happened before.  With housing going up so quickly, it was just a matter of time before it went down.  And before too long, no matter who is president, it will start to go back up.

I do agree that Bush is a tax cut and spend guy.  I am all for lower taxes, but that means you have to cut spending, something him and Congress don't seem to understand, and they are both responsible for it.


Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as far as possible, the need for its own existence.

Reagan, Los Angeles Times, January 7, 1970
JAGUser is Offline

Posts:528


06/30/2008 8:30 PM Alert 
Posted By RichTig on 06/30/2008 1:24 PM

The USSR was felled by Communism, not Atheism. 

China has a better economy than we do and we owe them trillions of dollars.

USSR killed 10s of million people, just because they did not want to reform. Some estimate that it could be from 60-100 Million people. Thats like the Crusades to the 10th power.

Would you really want to live in China? They are so restrictive of their people, they cannot even watch porn.

drummer72User is Online

Posts:3616


06/30/2008 10:16 PM Alert 
Posted By desertgal on 06/30/2008 1:44 PM

Posted By drummer72 on 06/30/2008 11:36 AM
How about we put this in the "religion" section, Jag? You have no problem thinking of other topics in that section.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe in God, but think it should stay out of politics. Not everyone believes in the same"God". Obama is a fine example! Some people THINK he is muslim and don't want to vote for him, for that reason alone.



ROTFL! How about the fact that he has no experience, is a tax-and-spend liberal, is a Marxist, evidently practices a form of Christianity where he thinks that there are many paths to God - that he may be a Muslim is only secondary.

 

 


I'm a firm believer in what Marx was trying to accomplish. He was funny, always had a cigar in his mouth and was very suave with the ladies. Although it has been said, that Harpo was the womanizer. 

By the way, I'm married...


"Everything for everyone and nothing for ourselves"
drummer72User is Online

Posts:3616


06/30/2008 10:17 PM Alert 
Posted By JAG on 06/30/2008 8:30 PM
Posted By RichTig on 06/30/2008 1:24 PM

The USSR was felled by Communism, not Atheism. 

China has a better economy than we do and we owe them trillions of dollars.

USSR killed 10s of million people, just because they did not want to reform. Some estimate that it could be from 60-100 Million people. Thats like the Crusades to the 10th power.

Would you really want to live in China? They are so restrictive of their people, they cannot even watch porn.

if one is a man of God, he doesn't need porn. God gave us hands for a reason. If you don't use them to fight, you need to use them to release tension other ways.


"Everything for everyone and nothing for ourselves"
cavemanUser is Offline

Posts:1078


06/30/2008 10:59 PM Alert 
Posted By Reagan on 06/30/2008 4:34 PM
Posted By caveman on 06/30/2008 2:59 PM

Posted By JoeMan on 06/30/2008 12:30 PM

I think if you take God out of any part of our past or future, this country will decline quickly.

Our country has declined very quickly in the past year alone and that had nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with a spend and lower taxes conservative. If he was a true christian though then why is he so pro death penalty? Why did he send troops to fight a nation based on a lie? Bush has killed more Americans than Al Queda has in their entire history but he is a man of religion.

 



So its Bush over there laying out road side bombs and IED's?  Are you really that stupid? 

Are you really that stupid to think we went to war over WMDs? The war was unnecessary and a total scam, Sadam was no threat to us.

What is with you people thinking that America is at its end?  Yes oil has gone up.  Yes, the housing market has declined.  Don't act like these things have never happened before.  With housing going up so quickly, it was just a matter of time before it went down.  And before too long, no matter who is president, it will start to go back up.

I agree with you here and largely blame uninformed americans that watch the news too much. The news is not informative they have become a form of entertainment. People think they are informed but instead they are being fed fear every evening on the news.

I do agree that Bush is a tax cut and spend guy.  I am all for lower taxes, but that means you have to cut spending, something him and Congress don't seem to understand, and they are both responsible for it.

This is true.

hastings1066User is Offline

Posts:879


06/30/2008 11:26 PM Alert 

Posted By RichTig China has a better economy than we do 

 

RichTig - That statement is not true. You are once again allowing your hatred of Bush to obscure the facts. US GDP over $7 trillion (#1 in the world) - China $3.4 Trillion (#3 in the world). GDP per capita (wealth created per person) US $45,575  #1 in the world -China $2,034  #105 in the world. Real unemployment (estimated by economist who study China, as China gives fake numbers) US about 5.5% China about 13%. As the above facts demonstrate China is still a third world country with a third world economy. The only number that is impressive is the GDP, and that is only so high because of the sheer number of people in China. Facts will trump hate every time. As a side note 12,000,000 people  have come to the US illegally, many of them from China, I wonder why. How many people do you suppose are risking their lives to get into China?

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