Janice
Posts:108
 | | 07/27/2007 4:59 PM |
 Alert | Posted By Lano on 07/27/2007 4:35 PM
Janice..............."Not trying to take away from this tragedy??" That's what you do with this statement. Remember these are the victims...there's actually a criminal here, that deserves ALL of the blame.
My comment was not referring to this incident, these pilots or the criminal but to the topic of so-called "story chasing". Perhaps it would have been more tasteful to save it for the next big thread, "Media coverage going too far?" but my statement still stands. | |
Janice, not Janet. | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/27/2007 5:02 PM |
Alert | Posted By Lano on 07/27/2007 4:35 PM
Janice..............."Not trying to take away from this tragedy??" That's what you do with this statement. Remember these are the victims...there's actually a criminal here, that deserves ALL of the blame.
Why is the guy running from the police responsible for the completely independent actions of someone else? It is sad that they died, but the driver was not contributing to them flying so close. | |
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Tjtellez9
Posts:228
| | 07/27/2007 5:09 PM |
Alert | actually Jason, if it hadnt been for the car chase, the helicopters would have been nowhere near each other. Henceforth, he is indirectly responsible for the crash and the subsequent deaths. so for you to say the driver was not contributing to them flying close, is an absurd notion. But hey who am I to argue.
And its called depraved indifference
In many jurisdictions, such as in California, if the unintentional conduct amounts to such gross negligence as to amount to a willful or depraved indifference to human life, the mens rea may be considered to constitute malice. In such a case, the charged offense may be murder, often characterized as second degree murder | | | |
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sarahc
Posts:631
| | 07/27/2007 5:12 PM |
Alert | Although I think caveman may be a little harsh in his wording (he is a caveman after all) I do agree with him.
I was wrong for the man to run. But the need to catch the next big even on the news and beat all the other stations to it caused this accident not the man who took off from the cops.
Unfortunately 4 men who were well known and very much liked in the community are dead and hopefully a lesson was learned from this...
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JT
Posts:23
| | 07/27/2007 5:21 PM |
Alert | the voice of this pilot says it all....very sad
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=49750&cl=3487840&ch=68276&src=news | | | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
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| 07/27/2007 5:35 PM |
Alert | Posted By sarahc on 07/27/2007 5:12 PM
I was wrong for the man to run. But the need to catch the next big even on the news and beat all the other stations to it caused this accident not the man who took off from the cops.
I agree. As was pointed out earlier, if rubberneckers get into an accident, it is not the fault of the people pulled over on the side of the road. These were essentially flying rubberneckers. Tragic? Yes. Criminal's fault? No. I'm beginning to wonder what is happening to personal responsibility. The guy running from the police did not hold a gun to these pilots heads and force them to crash. | |
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YZRacer
Posts:1634
| | 07/27/2007 5:49 PM |
Alert | | I do hope that the family's of the victims are being supported by other family, friends and the employers of their loved ones. This is so awful! | |
If you can't spot the loser, it might be you
Senior Member
Posts: 665
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CODEBLEU
Posts:291
| | 07/27/2007 6:21 PM |
Alert | CAVEMAN- I am very dissapointed to hear you calling newspeople scum that try to hype stories. Im not even sure that I consider the News Crew Hellicopters involved trying to hype stories for money. They very well could have been working in conjunction with the Phoenix PD. Was there ever a mention of a Police Hellicopter airborne following the chase?
Anyways, 4 people died tragically today in a mid-air collision. I think that we should refrain from our personal opinions about the news media in general on such a sad day. Besides, many people have benefited from their services in the Valley throughout the years with all the traffic updates, weather updates, and the numerous other services Im sure they provided.
I will definately say a prayer for the lost air crews today----Commander Codebleu | | | |
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twostep23
Posts:1703
| | 07/27/2007 6:41 PM |
Alert | Our prayers and thoughts go out to all the family members of this horrific accident. | |
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DesertDweller
Posts:2562
| | 07/27/2007 6:56 PM |
Alert | Posted By vinny on 07/27/2007 3:13 PM Posted By lexmark on 07/27/2007 3:05 PM
WOO! Did you hear the criminal may be charged for the incident of the helicopter's!? how is that possible? the criminal had no control over the choppers. sounds like the media is hurt because this hits close to home
Under the theory of "transferred intent" a person in the commission of a felony can be held criminally liable for events that occur as a result of their crime even if they were not the direct cause of the occurrence. For example, two guys rob a Circle K. Robber A goes inside while Robber B stays in the getaway car. Robber A kills the clerk. Robber B is charged with murder even though he had no knowledge of the crime when it occurred and didn't pull the trigger.
The justification is, if you're going to be part of a felony, you are criminally liable for all consequences of that felony.
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Stupid should hurt!
Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006 | |
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Tjtellez9
Posts:228
| | 07/27/2007 9:09 PM |
Alert | video from the channel 15 chopper seconds before the crash.
WARNING: SOme people may find this disturbing. If you dont want to see it. Don't click on it. Its not bloody or gory. Just tugs at your heart strings alot
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3645.html
http://www.breitbart.tv/html/3647.html (channel twelve reporting ) Reporter in the helicopter says " those could be our friends...." Made me cry
http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=3651 skyfox ten. He witnessed the event. Never heard anyone so scared.
Link to AP story. http://breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8QL65F02&show_article=1&catnum=0&image=large | | | |
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starlaisme
Posts:55
| | 07/27/2007 9:21 PM |
Alert | Posted By caveman on 07/27/2007 4:13 PM
This guy is not responsible for 4 deaths. That responsibility lies on the helicopter pilots.
Can’t you wait until the bodies are in the morgue until you bash these poor people. Please show some respect. | |
25MPH in VRED: not just a good idea, it's the law. | |
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Colgate
Posts:642
| | 07/27/2007 9:27 PM |
Alert | | Such a horrible story. My heart goes out to their many family and friends. | |
Live every day as if it were your last and smile! | |
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mallardisme
Posts:609
| | 07/27/2007 9:52 PM |
Alert | What people forget is WHY we have a free media.
It has been proven through history that absolute power corrupts absolutly.
The media were doing their job in this case. When the police are not watched, they tend to step on rights.
The helicoptors chase the persuit so that citizens know what is going on, which way the out of control car thief is driving and to be sure that he arrested and not beat up at the end of the chase.
The person in this case that stole the car is guilty of murder. 4 people died as a direct result of his actions. If he had stayed home today, 4 people would still be with us.
The only thing worse than a free media is NOT having a free media.
My heart does go out to the family and friends and all of the friends all 4 picked up on the way through their work and actions. (Especially the CH15 pilot that spent several years delivering donated organs for immediate surgury) | |
Let X=X | |
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vinny
Posts:676
| | 07/27/2007 10:12 PM |
Alert | Posted By mallardisme on 07/27/2007 9:52 PM
What people forget is WHY we have a free media.
It has been proven through history that absolute power corrupts absolutly.
The media were doing their job in this case. When the police are not watched, they tend to step on rights.
The helicoptors chase the persuit so that citizens know what is going on, which way the out of control car thief is driving and to be sure that he arrested and not beat up at the end of the chase.
The person in this case that stole the car is guilty of murder. 4 people died as a direct result of his actions. If he had stayed home today, 4 people would still be with us.
The only thing worse than a free media is NOT having a free media.
My heart does go out to the family and friends and all of the friends all 4 picked up on the way through their work and actions. (Especially the CH15 pilot that spent several years delivering donated organs for immediate surgury)
so, we can all agree that the police should use every bit of force possible to prevent chases to save more lives. if the criminal was shot, boxed in, rammed off the road or whatever 4 reporters would still be alive....
this guy already had a criminal record, surprising....
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Follow your bliss. Happiness is a conscious decision | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/27/2007 10:20 PM |
Alert | Posted By DesertDweller on 07/27/2007 6:56 PM Posted By vinny on 07/27/2007 3:13 PM Posted By lexmark on 07/27/2007 3:05 PM
WOO! Did you hear the criminal may be charged for the incident of the helicopter's!? how is that possible? the criminal had no control over the choppers. sounds like the media is hurt because this hits close to home Under the theory of "transferred intent" a person in the commission of a felony can be held criminally liable for events that occur as a result of their crime even if they were not the direct cause of the occurrence. For example, two guys rob a Circle K. Robber A goes inside while Robber B stays in the getaway car. Robber A kills the clerk. Robber B is charged with murder even though he had no knowledge of the crime when it occurred and didn't pull the trigger. The justification is, if you're going to be part of a felony, you are criminally liable for all consequences of that felony.
So in your example, if someone crashes into a pump, that's Robber A and Robber B's fault? Even though the driver wasn't paying attention?
I guess my point is these two helicopters could have crashed observing a dust storm. The driver in no way caused the crash. That doesn't apply? | |
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mallardisme
Posts:609
| | 07/27/2007 11:01 PM |
Alert | No Vinny,
My point is opposite. The police should only use the required force, nothing more. (And nothing less)
The police did everything right here all the way down to how they finally ended the situation.
What the point is here is that the police follow the book much better when they know there are eyes looking at them.
Take Rodney King. (Sorry, I lived through it and knew the officers involved before hand-and they were pretty bad)
Was the persuit wrong? No. Was the ultimate stop wrong? No. Should he have been hit? Yes. The thing is that after it was declared code four, and the suspect was under control, they stopped hitting, took a few breaths and then began hitting a subdued and under control suspect again. That was where the issue was with the community.
Why did they do this? Because they were still up from the chase AND (this is really important) The did not think anyone was watching.
We need the extra eyes out there. That was one of the main reasons for the 1st ammendment of our constitution.
I don't condone the idiot floating heads we are stuck with on most news networks, but I do appreciate the hard work of the people that do work for a living. The four that died today were not leftist nor rightests. They were the ones that bring information to the people as 3rd party persons.
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reina
Posts:281
| | 07/27/2007 11:01 PM |
Alert | Posted By vinny on 07/27/2007 10:12 PM Posted By mallardisme on 07/27/2007 9:52 PM
What people forget is WHY we have a free media.
It has been proven through history that absolute power corrupts absolutly.
The media were doing their job in this case. When the police are not watched, they tend to step on rights.
The helicoptors chase the persuit so that citizens know what is going on, which way the out of control car thief is driving and to be sure that he arrested and not beat up at the end of the chase.
The person in this case that stole the car is guilty of murder. 4 people died as a direct result of his actions. If he had stayed home today, 4 people would still be with us.
The only thing worse than a free media is NOT having a free media.
My heart does go out to the family and friends and all of the friends all 4 picked up on the way through their work and actions. (Especially the CH15 pilot that spent several years delivering donated organs for immediate surgury) so, we can all agree that the police should use every bit of force possible to prevent chases to save more lives. if the criminal was shot, boxed in, rammed off the road or whatever 4 reporters would still be alive.... this guy already had a criminal record, surprising....
Are the police in a lose/lose situation here? We get angry when we feel the police did not do enough (i.e. low speed persuit, pulling over for this driver) and 4 innocent lives are lost.
How much blame would you put on the police department if they had engaged in a high speed pursuit resulting in this man t-boning a vehicle and killing 4 passengers?
This is just a terrible, terrible turn of events. I feel sad for the large group of people who have lost their friend(s) and/or family member(s). I feel sad for the people who witnessed the crash. I even feel sad for TV viewers who felt close to the reporters and photographers and are mourning their losses this evening.
There are so many could've, should've, would'ves. For now, I am waiting for the "official" reports to come out before I point any fingers.
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DesertDweller
Posts:2562
| | 07/27/2007 11:02 PM |
Alert | There has to be intent to commit a felony, not negligence, in order for there to be transferred intent, and the consequence has to be a direct result of the crime the person intended to commit.
I don't doubt that Andrew Thomas will do his best to charge this guy. It's going to be very hard to make stick. If two people had crashed into each other because he ran a red light and they took action to avoid him, that's a much better case. Nevertheless, I think there's probably enough there to bring charges. This ups the ante at the plea bargaining table, if nothing else. | |
Stupid should hurt!
Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006 | |
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Jason
Posts:3378
| | 07/27/2007 11:10 PM |
Alert | Posted By DesertDweller on 07/27/2007 11:02 PM
There has to be intent to commit a felony, not negligence, in order for there to be transferred intent, and the consequence has to be a direct result of the crime the person intended to commit.
I don't doubt that Andrew Thomas will do his best to charge this guy. It's going to be very hard to make stick. If two people had crashed into each other because he ran a red light and they took action to avoid him, that's a much better case. Nevertheless, I think there's probably enough there to bring charges. This ups the ante at the plea bargaining table, if nothing else.
I'm still not getting why the guy should be responsible for the irresponsible flying of two helicopters? All kinds of chases are captured and news helicopters do it safely... | |
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