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| | Author | Messages | |
AuntieEm
Posts:159
 | | 02/02/2008 3:07 PM |
 Alert | This is a resonse to the above quote from missPolitick.
1. "I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian churches), for they were all wrong…their creeds were an abomination in [God’s] sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (Joseph Smith—History 1:19).
2. "Orthodox Christian views of God are pagan rather than Christian" (Mormon Doctrine of Deity, B. H. Roberts [General Authority], 116).
3. "Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast" (Journal of Discourses, John Taylor Αrd Mormon President], 13:225).
4. "The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon" (Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, Orson Pratt, n. 6, 84).
5. "All the priests who adhere to the sectarian [Christian] religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels" (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith, ed. Vol. 1, n. 4, 60).
6. [Under the heading, "Church of the Devil," Apostle Bruce R. McConkie lists:] "The Roman Catholic Church specifically—singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)" (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, 129).
7. "Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Morm. 8; Moro. 8)" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, Bruce R. McConkie, 177).
8. "It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this 'church which is the most abominable above all other churches' in vision. He 'saw the devil that he was the foundation of it' and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization. (1 Nephi 13:1-10)" - Mormon Doctrine, p. 130 (1958)
9. "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospelordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon! - Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255
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I'm walking 60 miles over three days in the Arizona Breast Cancer 3-Day because everyone deserves a lifetime! http://08.the3day.org/goto/emma | |
| | djbaldwin
Posts:244
| | 02/02/2008 4:22 PM |
Alert | | Your right all mormons are the devil. now we got that cleared up who else should we bash. It seems like every other thread on here is just bashing the lds faith. Does everybody hate the LDS church that much? | |
"If everyone had the right priorities in life there would always be a shortage of fishing poles"
Mark Twain | |
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| | DaybyDay
Posts:257
| | 02/02/2008 4:23 PM |
Alert | | Excuse me? What are you referring to? This is just rude. I don't get it. I am not LDS and I don't understand the beginnings of this post at all. | | | |
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| | DaybyDay
Posts:257
| | 02/02/2008 4:24 PM |
Alert | | Okay, I think I understand now. Somebody said the title quote and these are your supports to the contrary of what they said. WHEW! | | | |
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| | AuntieEm
Posts:159
| | 02/02/2008 4:50 PM |
Alert | Posted By djbaldwin on 02/02/2008 4:22 PM
Your right all mormons are the devil. now we got that cleared up who else should we bash. It seems like every other thread on here is just bashing the lds faith. Does everybody hate the LDS church that much?
When did I ever say that Mormons are the devil? NEVER! And I'm sorry, but there is no bashing of the LDS here, but instead, LDS bashing other faiths. Someone one on another thread said that LDS never bash other religions, and I posted to show that in fact many leaders of the Mormon church do bash other religions.
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I'm walking 60 miles over three days in the Arizona Breast Cancer 3-Day because everyone deserves a lifetime! http://08.the3day.org/goto/emma | |
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| | hastings1066
Posts:784
| | 02/02/2008 5:09 PM |
Alert | | It is in the very nature of religion that those who hold to a certain faith must, by definition, believe that all others are, to some degree or another, in error. | | | |
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|  | djbaldwin
Posts:244
| | 02/02/2008 7:09 PM |
Alert | Posted By hastings1066 on 02/02/2008 5:09 PM
It is in the very nature of religion that those who hold to a certain faith must, by definition, believe that all others are, to some degree or another, in error.
Pretty much, but the thing is the lds church doesn't dedicate whole sermons to bashing other faiths. But the lds faith does believe that by virtue of it being the true faith others are to some degree false. But they also teach to have general understanding of all faiths. That is why the LDS faith tries to do so many cooperative efforts with other faiths. | |
"If everyone had the right priorities in life there would always be a shortage of fishing poles"
Mark Twain | |
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| | hastings1066
Posts:784
| | 02/02/2008 7:59 PM |
Alert | Posted By djbaldwin on 02/02/2008 7:09 PM Posted By hastings1066 on 02/02/2008 5:09 PM
It is in the very nature of religion that those who hold to a certain faith must, by definition, believe that all others are, to some degree or another, in error. Pretty much, but the thing is the lds church doesn't dedicate whole sermons to bashing other faiths. But the lds faith does believe that by virtue of it being the true faith others are to some degree false. But they also teach to have general understanding of all faiths. That is why the LDS faith tries to do so many cooperative efforts with other faiths.
I wonder if Jesus gives a fig for the differences between Catholics, Orthodox, Baptist, Anglicans, Methodist, or the LDS. Or would he say “In my father’s house are many mansions”? | | | |
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| | djbaldwin
Posts:244
| | 02/02/2008 9:11 PM |
Alert | | The main thing is that we must follow the spirit of christs message. I think that is to be kind to others and to treat them as we feel he would. There maybe all kinds of various doctrines but we all should try and follow that same message | |
"If everyone had the right priorities in life there would always be a shortage of fishing poles"
Mark Twain | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:389
| | 02/02/2008 9:28 PM |
Alert | AuntiEm:
I find it telling that the “talking points” list from anti-Mormon propaganda you copied-and-pasted these from didn’t have anything after the 1950s. Most criticisms of Mormonism drudge up o-l-d statements from past centuries. Do people tend to do that with other churches? Not to belabor the obvious, but these statements all came from a different era, one in which all churches were more blunt and colorful with their rhetoric and much less obsessed with being PC than currently. One could drudge up similar statements from leaders of all sects regarding other, rival churches from the early 19th to mid 20th centuries, but who cares?
I think the point of Miss Politick’s statement was that Mormon churches don’t hold classes and presentations on how to “witness” to or combat other churches. We don’t picket other churches (in fairness, most people don’t picket or protest other churches, but isn’t it telling that this circus sideshow stuff doesn’t happen to other churches, only the LDS Church. One must ask oneself: why is that?).
This list you have posted is actually a wonderful example of B. H. Roberts’s “orchard analogy.” This list:
“is as one who walks through some splendid orchard and gathers here and there the worm-eaten, frost-bitten, wind-blasted, growth-stunted and rotten fruit, which in spite of the best of care is to be found in every orchard; bringing this to us he says: “This is the fruit of yonder orchard; you see how worthless it is; an orchard growing such fruit is ready for the burning.” Whereas, the fact may be that there are tons and tons of beautiful, luscious fruit . . . remaining in the orchard to which he does not call our attention at all. Would not such a representation of the orchard be an untruth, notwithstanding his blighted specimens were gathered from its trees? If he presents to us the blighted specimens of fruit from the orchard, is he not in truth and in honor bound also to call our attention to the rich harvest of splendid fruit that still remains ungathered before he asks us to pass judgment on the orchard? [B. H. Roberts, “Defense of the Faith and the Saints,” (Provo: Maasai, 2002), p. 48.]
Critics, Roberts observed on another occasion, collect “the wind-beaten, blasted, mildewed, dwarfed, or shrunken fruit, and carefully raking this together, represent this as the fruit of the orchard” of Mormonism, while omitting the “scores of tons of beautiful, ripe, and perfect fruit that is a credit to the orchard and to the husbandman of it.” The overwhelming quantity of good fruit is “passed by, and you are asked to judge the orchard by the blasted specimens that have been raked together.” (B. H. Roberts, “Defense of the Faith and the Saints,” pp. 657-658.)
Along these lines, in 1824 Sir Charles Butler wrote in response to Protestant attacks on his Roman Catholic faith:
“I willingly admit that to produce against our creed or conduct all that research and fair argument can supply is legitimate controversy; but surely to conceal our merits or to represent them very briefly and imperfectly, and to display our defects at length and with the highest coloring; to impute to our general body what in justice is only chargeable to individuals; or to estimate the writings or actions of our ancestors in the dark ages by the notions and manners of the present age, is a crying injustice.” (quoted in B. H. Roberts, “Defense of the Faith and the Saints,” pp. 48-49.)
Would you agree with this? Isn’t this what your list of statements does? In response to people like you, AuntiEm, who thrust these lists of “gotcha” talking points and ask “How are you going to account for these expressions which you declare are unwarranted by the law of the Church? How are you going to justify them?”), B. H. Roberts answered:
“Well, I am not going to justify them at all, but I can account for them. It cannot be that the world is so ignorant in this enlightened age as not to know that churches cannot be held responsible for every utterance that is made in their name and from their pulpits.” (B. H. Roberts, “Defense of the Faith and the Saints,” p. 663)
A couple of other points:
1. “The Seer” was repudiated by formal action of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the Church, and Elder Orson Pratt himself (the author of “The Seer”) sanctioned the repudiation. There was a long article published in the Deseret News on August 23, 1865, over the signatures of the First Presidency and Twelve setting forth that this work—“The Seer”—together with some other writings of Elder Pratt, were inaccurate . In the course of that document, after praising, as well they might, the great bulk of the work of this noted apostle, they say:
"But ‘The Seer,’ ‘The Great First Cause,’ the article in the Millennial Star, of Oct. 15, and Nov. 1, 1850 . . . contain doctrine which we cannot sanction and which we have felt to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works or parts of works are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed."
2. “Mormon Doctrine,” a massive encyclopedia of Mormonism, is a very good reference work, in the main. Bruce R. McConkie was not an apostle when he wrote it, and there are certain items in it (such as the hyperbolic anti-Catholic sections quoted) that he obviously ought not to have written, and which most Mormons take the gravest exception to. As just one of many examples, this is from a talk by B. H. Roberts in the April 1906 general conference of the Church:
“The question submitted to me was, ‘Is the Catholic church the church here referred to—the church of the devil ?.... Well,’ said I, in answer, ‘I would not like to take that position, because it would leave me with a lot of churches on my hands that I might not then be able to classify.’ So far as the Catholic church is concerned, I believe that there is just as much truth, nay, personally I believe it has retained even more truth than other divisions of so-called Christendom; and there is just as much virtue in the Roman Catholic church as there is in Protestant Christendom; and I am sure there is more strength.”
3. Critics often quote from “Journal of Discourses,” a mammoth collection of talks from Mormon leaders from 1851 to 1886 spanning nearly 10,000 pages in 26 volumes. This happens to be a specialty of mine, as I am writing a book (or multiple volumes) on around 100 topics from JoD. As is clear, the time frame, background, and shear number of pages makes this particular “orchard” a truly massive one in which to unfairly cherry-pick material from. The manifest unfairness of this is only really apparent to those who are familiar with the totality of material in it. I can tell you that the few quotations cited here are typical and representative of neither the work as a whole nor the men quoted. The “orchard approach” is nowhere more used (and used with a vengeance) than with JoD. | | | |
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| | moinmoin
Posts:389
| | 02/02/2008 9:36 PM |
Alert | Posted By AuntieEm on 02/02/2008 4:50 PM
Someone one on another thread said that LDS never bash other religions, and I posted to show that in fact many leaders of the Mormon church do bash other religions. It would be more accurate to say "some leaders of the Mormon Church have bashed other religions in the past."
Wouldn't it?
Seemingly small grammatical elements can make all the difference in the world. As written in your post, you imply that this is a widespread, common practice in recent times. In fact, it wasn't even common during the times the quotes come from. We're a missionary church, we go to other peoples and nations and try to present our message. Don't you think we would have learned by now that politeness and diplomacy are much more effective than divisive, caustic approaches? Would our church have grown like it has over the years if the "blasted fruit" you have posted was, at any time, the norm for how we approach people not of our faith?
Or do you have any statements more recent than the 1950s?
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| | moinmoin
Posts:389
| | 02/02/2008 10:14 PM |
Alert | A good explanation of some of the central issues in this thread is given by Roger Keller, a former Presbyterian minister from Mesa, Arizona. Dr. Keller teaches World Religions and American Christianity at BYU, and has served as a Mormon bishop. I had him for American Christianity, and while now a stalwart Mormon, he emphasizes learning from other religions and having respect for them.
His topic was "The Apostasy," or the falling away that made Mormonism necessary (highlighted by AuntieEm's first quote from Joseph Smith).
http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2004_Apostasy.html | | | |
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| | missPolitick
Posts:628
| | 02/03/2008 9:42 PM |
Alert | | I guess my point about "not putting down the religion of others" was rooted in the thinking that LDS people don't go out of their way to waste time, energy, and brain cells to conjure up ways to degrade what others hold sacred to them. Referring to the CDS crap. Maybe it's more immature than rude. | |
Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage | |
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| | drummer72
Posts:3075
| | 02/03/2008 11:42 PM |
Alert | Posted By djbaldwin on 02/02/2008 4:22 PM
Your right all mormons are the devil. now we got that cleared up who else should we bash. It seems like every other thread on here is just bashing the lds faith. Does everybody hate the LDS church that much?
Nope, I dislike republicans more. I could care less what others believe as far as GOD goes . I know where I'm going when I die. I will try and raise my children to believe that there is something more than just life on earth.
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OBAMA NATION! | |
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| | ken
Posts:516
| | 02/03/2008 11:50 PM |
Alert | But Drummer... you know God is a Republican don't you  | |
"Knowledge is often mistaken for intelligence. This is like mistaking a cup of milk for a cow." -- Unknown | |
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| | djbaldwin
Posts:244
| | 02/04/2008 8:12 AM |
Alert | Posted By ken on 02/03/2008 11:50 PM But Drummer... you know God is a Republican don't you
That's right a conservative one at that. I know that makes you cringe right drummer. Like I said we vot the right way or the dem way. | |
"If everyone had the right priorities in life there would always be a shortage of fishing poles"
Mark Twain | |
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| | drummer72
Posts:3075
| | 02/04/2008 3:01 PM |
Alert | Posted By djbaldwin on 02/04/2008 8:12 AM Posted By ken on 02/03/2008 11:50 PM But Drummer... you know God is a Republican don't you That's right a conservative one at that. I know that makes you cringe right drummer. Like I said we vot the right way or the dem way.
Yeah, the last 8 years sure have gone the right way,huh? | |
OBAMA NATION! | |
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| | JasonY
Posts:1874
| | 02/04/2008 3:17 PM |
Alert | | http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/04/bush.budget.ap/index.html#cnnSTCOther2 | |
"Your village called.........they're missing their idiot" | |
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| | missPolitick
Posts:628
| | 02/04/2008 3:45 PM |
Alert | I love how politics seeps into every thread. Really, I do love it!  | |
Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage | |
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| | TheBoymaker
Posts:708
| | 02/19/2008 7:19 PM |
Alert | Posted By hastings1066 on 02/02/2008 5:09 PM
It is in the very nature of religion that those who hold to a certain faith must, by definition, believe that all others are, to some degree or another, in error. Absolutely. Every event of belief or disbelief involves rejection and acceptance. | |
Poster formerly known as Sassafrass. | |
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