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Subject: A nuclear Iran
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hastings1066User is Offline

Posts:883


05/04/2008 3:22 PM Alert 

The next President, be it Obama, Clinton, or McCain, will have to deal with an Iran that is getting closer and closer to obtaining nuclear weapons. It is obvious that Bush can/will do nothing in the time he has left. He is politically emasculated and would be pilloried if he tried to act against Iran.That leaves us with the next President. No matter who it is, he/she  will be faced with this problem. What should the next President do? What would be the response to his/her action? What would be the result of inaction? Please lets talk about a future President's actions and not go on anti-Bush rants. He is the past, lets talk about the future.

I hope that we can all agree that all of the candidates want what they think is best for the country even if we disagree with them. Lets all assume that those in this discussion who disagree with us are not stupid or evil. With those parameters in mind I hope that we can have an enlightening discussion.

HiggsBosonUser is Offline

Posts:641


05/04/2008 3:37 PM Alert 
I think we should send them a real nice gift basket from Harry and Davids.

Thanks,
Higgs

Liberalism and capitalism address themselves to the cool, well-balanced mind. They proceed by strict logic, eliminating any appeal to the emotions. Socialism, on the contrary, works on the emotions, tries to violate logical considerations by rousing a sense of personal interest and to stifle the voice of reason by awakening primitive instincts.
-- Ludwig Von Mises
DesertDwellerUser is Offline

Posts:2559


05/04/2008 4:39 PM Alert 
The United States should act preemptively, unilaterally, and decisively to ensure that Iran never acquires nuclear weapons or an intercontinental delivery system. Iran is a radical theocracy. Even in the present state of their technology, they pose a grave threat to world security. Their outrageous beliefs and use of a false prophet to justify their offensive behavior makes them even more of a risk.




Stupid should hurt!

Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006
Cactus RobUser is Offline

Posts:1041


05/04/2008 6:39 PM Alert 

You've got it right, DD.  Problem is, our nation is so divided I'm not sure we can do the things that are necessary to defend it.   

cavemanUser is Offline

Posts:1078


05/04/2008 7:28 PM Alert 
How about we employ some diplomacy instead of threats? Bush being a cowboy has gotten us in enough of a mess. Here is a pic of countries worldwide that have nuclear weapons. Why aren't people that mad about countries like China, India, Pakistan, and North Korea having nukes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nuclear_weapons.png
DesertDwellerUser is Offline

Posts:2559


05/04/2008 7:37 PM Alert 
Oh, I agree with you on diplomacy Caveman. In most cases that works. In the case of Iran, it won't. They're too radical. It's kind of hard to be diplomatic when they guy across the table is calling you an infidel and calling for your destruction. Even North Korea was conducive to discussions because they're devoid the religious rhetoric. Pakistan, although they have the same religious issues that Iran has, is under the control of a military dictator that is at least as rational as military dictators can be. I would put them on the first strike watch list in the even things got shaky.

There are a couple of areas where diplomacy and rationalization don't work:

1. Rabid pit bulls.
2. Religious fanatics.


Stupid should hurt!

Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006
hastings1066User is Offline

Posts:883


05/04/2008 7:43 PM Alert 

DD - That is one possible way to solve the problem. Politically, only a Democratic President could take such action without tearing the nation apart. Can you imagine what the left and the Democratic Congress would do to McCain if he took any such action? Just as it had to be a devoted anti-communist like Nixon to open relations with China, It would have to be a liberal Democrat that takes such unilateral action against Iran. Even then it would create a massive rift in the Democratic party, with the ideologist at war with the pragmatist. With the above considerations I can see little chance of any such action unless Iran did something monumentally stupid and provocative. Of course, given the government they have, anything is possible.

hastings1066User is Offline

Posts:883


05/04/2008 8:08 PM Alert 

caveman - Negotiation and diplomacy are fine when both sides have something to gain by a peaceful resolution. When you are dealing with people who want your destruction and are willing to die to achieve that end it leaves very little to negotiate. The UN and western powers have been negotiating with Iran on this issue for years, with little change in Iran's behavior. If I was the government of Iran, I would love to negotiate with you. I would negotiate forever, I would talk, and talk, and talk, until I had a nice little stockpile of bombs and a delivery system. I would then tell the world to go to h_ _ _!

A major weakness of western politicians of all nations and parties is their idea that reasonable people can come to reasonable agreements and thus solve all disputes via negotiation. This falls apart when you are dealing with people driven by emotion and hate rather than reason. When a man comes to your house because he thinks that God told him to kill you and he will spend the rest of eternity in paradise with the services of dozens of beautiful virgins if he does so, you have little room for negotiation.

At what point should the President who followed your path decide that diplomacy was not working? What would your fall back decision be? I am not being argumentative, I really want to know what you thinking is on this subject.

cavemanUser is Offline

Posts:1078


05/04/2008 11:12 PM Alert 
Who are we to pick and choose which countries have nuclear weapons? That is my answer to you. Why are we suddenly the defenders of nuclear technology? What have we done to prevent old Soviet nukes from falling into the wrong hands?
downfallUser is Offline

Posts:133


05/05/2008 6:01 AM Alert 

Posted By caveman on 05/04/2008 11:12 PM
Who are we to pick and choose which countries have nuclear weapons? That is my answer to you. Why are we suddenly the defenders of nuclear technology? What have we done to prevent old Soviet nukes from falling into the wrong hands?

 

>>We don't pick which countries have Nukes we try to stop the spread of Nukes, especially to countries that are not friendly to us.  We do this since we have the most to lose if they get the nukes and also we are the hegemonic power in the world. We have done quite a bit to prevent Soviet era Nukes from falling into the wrong hands, Nunn-Lugar CTR program, working with the Russians to inventory and secure their nukes, work with the border states to stop nukes from crossing borders.

 


"The price for conducting foreign policy on the basis of abstract principles is the impossibility of distinguishing among individual cases"
jhallUser is Offline

Posts:1237


05/05/2008 9:02 AM Alert 
Holy Crap Caveman... you never cease to amaze me.... Please read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Non-Proliferation_Treaty

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
--Edmund Burke
RichTigUser is Offline

Posts:0

05/05/2008 11:05 AM Alert 

Nuculear Weapons are bad.

missPolitickUser is Offline

Posts:644


05/05/2008 8:45 PM Alert 
Posted By DesertDweller on 05/04/2008 4:39 PM
The United States should act preemptively, unilaterally, and decisively to ensure that Iran never acquires nuclear weapons or an intercontinental delivery system. Iran is a radical theocracy. Even in the present state of their technology, they pose a grave threat to world security. Their outrageous beliefs and use of a false prophet to justify their offensive behavior makes them even more of a risk.

 

 

I'm almost embarrassed to be an American. We are such bullies. Who are we to go take away Iran's stuff? Stop the bloodshed. The government should mind their own business and their government cheese. Stay out of other countries business, etc............................................................


Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage
drummer72User is Offline

Posts:3626


05/05/2008 10:07 PM Alert 
Almost? WE all should be ashamed to have voted for a republican.

"Everything for everyone and nothing for ourselves"
hastings1066User is Offline

Posts:883


05/05/2008 10:37 PM Alert 
Posted By missPolitick on 05/05/2008 8:45 PM
Posted By DesertDweller on 05/04/2008 4:39 PM
The United States should act preemptively, unilaterally, and decisively to ensure that Iran never acquires nuclear weapons or an intercontinental delivery system. Iran is a radical theocracy. Even in the present state of their technology, they pose a grave threat to world security. Their outrageous beliefs and use of a false prophet to justify their offensive behavior makes them even more of a risk.

 

 

I'm almost embarrassed to be an American. We are such bullies. Who are we to go take away Iran's stuff? Stop the bloodshed. The government should mind their own business and their government cheese. Stay out of other countries business, etc............................................................

 

[/quot
cavemanUser is Offline

Posts:1078


05/05/2008 11:30 PM Alert 
Posted By drummer72 on 05/05/2008 10:07 PM
Almost? WE all should be ashamed to have voted for a republican.


I have no reason to be ashamed, I voted democrat both times.  I do enjoy the people that voted for Bush in 04 and now try to make excuses for why they did it. In 04 they were all so gung ho about being in a war and the level of patriotism filled their veins so much that they could no use proper judgement.

hastings1066User is Offline

Posts:883


05/05/2008 11:54 PM Alert 

Anti- Bush rants may be fun for Bush haters but as such add nothing to a discussion about what the next President should do about Iran. Perhaps you should start an I hate Bush forum so  that you can  talk to each other so that the rest of us can discuss the topic at hand.

hastings1066User is Offline

Posts:883


05/06/2008 12:29 AM Alert 
Posted By hastings1066 on 05/05/2008 10:37 PM
Posted By missPolitick on 05/05/2008 8:45 PM
Posted By DesertDweller on 05/04/2008 4:39 PM
The United States should act preemptively, unilaterally, and decisively to ensure that Iran never acquires nuclear weapons or an intercontinental delivery system. Iran is a radical theocracy. Even in the present state of their technology, they pose a grave threat to world security. Their outrageous beliefs and use of a false prophet to justify their offensive behavior makes them even more of a risk.

 

 

I'm almost embarrassed to be an American. We are such bullies. Who are we to go take away Iran's stuff? Stop the bloodshed. The government should mind their own business and their government cheese. Stay out of other countries business, etc............................................................

 

[/quot

By Iran's stuff I assume you are referring to any nuclear weapons that they may produce. I find it bemusing that in the same post you say "Stop the bloodshed" and also oppose preventing a nation ,that has a record of supporting and arming terrorist and has announced that its goal is to destroy Israel, from gaining nuclear weapons. I wonder who you would blame if the next President does nothing (mind our own business) and in a few years Tel Aviv and a few 100,000 people become radioactive dust. Would you be proud or embarrassed to be an American if such a thing happened? Just what do you think will happen if a nation that thinks it is its holy duty to destroy Israel and that hates our liberal western traditions, gets the bombs and missiles that it is working so hard to develop?

If you read the history of Europe in the 1930s you will find that you view was very popular with some in government, the press , and  the universities of Britain and France. They insisted that their governments "mine their own business" when Germany violated treaties, rearmed, occupied the Rhineland and Austria, marched into the Sudetenland, invaded Czechoslovakia, Poland, Norway,  Holland, Denmark, and Belgium. They changed their mind in France when the German army marched into Paris. They changed there minds in Britain when they had to sleep in bomb shelters. If they had acted in the early 30s, Britain and France could have stopped Hitler with very little effort. But as Hitler himself said "There is no will in Europe only submission". Sadly it seems that there is little will in the West today to protect Western ideals.

missPolitickUser is Offline

Posts:644


05/06/2008 7:47 AM Alert 
Sorry Hastings, I was joking. I'll try to do better next time. ; )

Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage
DesertDwellerUser is Offline

Posts:2559


05/06/2008 9:02 AM Alert 
Caveman brought up the point about our being the world's policemen. I have to agree that in many cases, we put our nose in where it doesn't belong. While we do have a moral responsibility to intervene to stop oppression, cruelty, and crimes against humanity, we don't have the right to tell a sovereign nation how to manage their affairs.

Vietnam, where I spent a good part of my youth in the military, is a good example. There was no reason for us to sacrifice 60,000-plus American lives, as well as the Vietnamese lives that were lost, over a political/ideological difference. Those folks are better off under a Communist regime then they were under the corrupt Van Thieu/Ky governments. Their living standard is better. Their economy is better. We should have stayed out of it. They would have never been a threat to the U.S. Right next door, under Pol Pot, we had genocide taking place and we turned a blind eye.

Nuclear weapons are different. We have a moral responsibility to the planet to not only stop their proliferation but to ensure that they never fall into the hands of terrorists or radicals, both of which describe the government of Iran. Just as you wouldn't allow a madman access to a gun, you wouldn't allow these people a means to spread their hateful diatribe beyond their borders. They have sworn to destroy us because we're the strength behind Israel. Don't doubt for a second that they wouldn't detonate the very first nuclear weapon that they acquire on either Israeli or American soil.

Stupid should hurt!

Desert Dweller - Senior Member - Posts: 2982 - Joined: Feb 2006
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